Remove [Courses] from lesson names/post subjects

[mbox2moodle.git] / source / fs

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Tue Jul  1 06:59:00 2003
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
To: techtalk@linuxchix.org, newchix@linuxchix.org,
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] UNIX Filesystem course
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Hey again,

        Thanks for all the positive feedback! In light of it, I have decided that I 
am definitely going forward with this course. I have written two and a half 
lessons (including the already-posted introduction), so I'm ready to start 
off.

        If you wish to take this course, subscribe to the courses mailing list at 
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses/. If you only want to 
see the Filesystems course, change your subscription options to only 
subscribe to the filesystem topic. Instructions for how to do this are 
available at http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/.
        If you're starting a new thread on this course (which, by the way, I'd prefer 
you not to do - if you reply to my mails, it helps those of use with threaded 
mailers to group discussion by the lesson which sparked it off), include the 
string "[FS]" in your subject line - otherwise, people who are only 
subscribed to this topic won't see it.

        The first lesson (the introduction, which has already been posted publically 
before) will hit the list in a few days' time. Please subscribe to the list 
and post a "hello, I'm here!" message as soon as you can, so I can guage how 
many people have arrived and how rapidly they're doing it.

        OK, this will be the last mass-spam on this subject. Further discussion will 
all take place on the courses mailing list. Hope to see you there!

Meredydd

From rachel@xtreme.com  Tue Jul  1 07:39:57 2003
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From: "Rachel McConnell" <rachel@xtreme.com>
To: <courses@linuxchix.org>
Subject: RE: [Courses] [FS] UNIX Filesystem course
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:37:51 -0700
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Hello, I'm here!

;-)
rachel

-----Original Message-----
From: courses-bounces@linuxchix.org
[mailto:courses-bounces@linuxchix.org] On Behalf Of Meredydd
<snip/>
        The first lesson (the introduction, which has already been
posted publically 
before) will hit the list in a few days' time. Please subscribe to the
list 
and post a "hello, I'm here!" message as soon as you can, so I can guage
how 
many people have arrived and how rapidly they're doing it.


From wolfryder@qwest.net  Tue Jul  1 07:49:13 2003
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] UNIX Filesystem course
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Just signed up. A coworker was interested as well and I'm keeping him 
up-to-date on the lessons.

Carol

From siobhan+lc@spiderland.net  Tue Jul  1 09:03:50 2003
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] UNIX Filesystem course
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yoo-hoo...

> The first lesson (the introduction, which has already been
> posted publically 
> before) will hit the list in a few days' time. Please subscribe to the
> list and post a "hello, I'm here!" message as soon as you can

> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses

-- 
"If anoyne in the plot had even the slightest intelligence, the story
would implode."     --Roger Ebert, reviewing 'Jawbreaker'
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Hello, I'm here  :)

> > The first lesson (the introduction, which has already been
> > posted publically
> > before) will hit the list in a few days' time. Please subscribe to the
> > list and post a "hello, I'm here!" message as soon as you can
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Courses mailing list
> > Courses@linuxchix.org
> > http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses

From katie@katie-and-rob.org  Tue Jul  1 07:56:32 2003
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From: Katie Bechtold <katie@katie-and-rob.org>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] UNIX Filesystem course
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On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 09:58:55PM +0100, Meredydd wrote:
> Please subscribe to the list 
> and post a "hello, I'm here!" message as soon as you can, so I can guage how 
> many people have arrived and how rapidly they're doing it.

Hello; I'm here!

-- 
Katie Bechtold         http://katie-and-rob.org/
From horatio@qpsf.edu.au  Wed Jul  2 10:31:49 2003
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On Sat, 31 May 2003, Meredydd wrote:

> Please subscribe to the list and post a "hello, I'm here!" message as
> soon as you can, so I can guage how many people have arrived and how
> rapidly they're doing it.

*knock, knock*

Cheers,

Horatio

From trish@thefrasers.org  Tue Jul  1 08:46:10 2003
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From: Patricia Fraser <trish@thefrasers.org>
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I'm here too!
-- 
Trish Fraser, Sunbury, Australia
Linux user #283226  counter.li.org
cassiopeia up 15 days and counting
kernel 2.4.18-6mdk
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Patricia Fraser wrote:

>I'm here too!
>  
>

So am I.

-- 
Kathy Wills

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Genealogy Web Site: http://www.kathywillsfamily.com               +
+                                                                   +
+ Summit Group Web Site: http://www.tsginfo.com/index.php?rc=VW4374 +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


From carla@bratgrrl.com  Tue Jul  1 14:31:46 2003
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On Monday 30 June 2003 3:46 pm, Patricia Fraser wrote:
> I'm here too!

Me 2! Ca mon, teach, let's git crackin'!
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
www.tuxcomputing.com
this message brought to you
by Libranet 2.7 and Kmail
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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hand up, im here

"Imagine a school with children that can read and write, but with teachers who
cannot, and you have a metaphor of the Information Age in which we live."   -
Peter Cochrane




From michelle.poirier@utoronto.ca  Tue Jul  1 08:51:42 2003
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hi, i'm here too!
michelle
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Here am I, too!
Sonia

From juliac@patriot.net  Tue Jul  1 12:44:28 2003
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Hello, I'm here!

-- Julia

From connie_nguyen888@yahoo.com  Tue Jul  1 15:39:08 2003
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i'm here

Julia Christianson <juliac@patriot.net> wrote:Hello, I'm here!

-- Julia

_______________________________________________
Courses mailing list
Courses@linuxchix.org
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses


cn

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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mlynx is also here
-- 

beta test, v:
        To voluntarily entrust one's data, one's livelihood and one's
        sanity to hardware or software intended to destroy all three.
        In earlier days, virgins were often selected to beta test 
        volcanos.


From ch@uqconnect.net  Tue Jul  1 13:00:47 2003
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On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 10:42:45PM -0400, Julia Christianson wrote:
> Hello, I'm here!

I'm here too :)

* Carlo pokes Horatio.

-- Carlo
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Carlo Hamalainen wrote:

>
>* Carlo pokes Horatio.
>
>-- Carlo
>  
>
Did H. poke back?

Rudy

From connie_nguyen888@yahoo.com  Wed Jul  2 01:33:28 2003
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From: cn <connie_nguyen888@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [Courses] PLEASE READ linux chix "I'm here" emails - I don't want
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Hello,
I've gotta a huge volume of emails like the one below that it's almost like SPAM (sorry I don't mean to point anyone out. I just grabbed teh first example"). There's a bunch of the "I'm here emails" to sign up for the class  - how can I eliminate getting these emails that do not pertain to me while maintaining my membership in the group?????!!!!! 

"Rudy L. Zijlstra" <rudy@edsons.demon.nl> wrote:
Carlo Hamalainen wrote:

>
>* Carlo pokes Horatio.
>
>-- Carlo
> 
>
Did H. poke back?

Rudy

_______________________________________________
Courses mailing list
Courses@linuxchix.org
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses


cn

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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From: Terri Oda <terri@zone12.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] PLEASE READ linux chix "I'm here" emails - I don't want
        them
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On Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 08:33:24AM -0700, cn wrote:
> Hello, I've gotta a huge volume of emails like the one below that it's
> almost like SPAM (sorry I don't mean to point anyone out. I just grabbed
> teh first example"). There's a bunch of the "I'm here emails" to sign up
> for the class - how can I eliminate getting these emails that do not
> pertain to me while maintaining my membership in the group?????!!!!!

<list admin hat>
In the future, could people send the "I'm here!" mails directly to
Meredydd?

I know it's neat to see how many other people are participating, but since
other courses run on this list, it'd be more polite to do it this way. 

BTW, if anyone wants to, you can also specifically avoid the filesystem
course mails.  The instructions are available here:
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/

You can always read the mails in the archives and re-join that topic when
the hellos die down!
</list admin hat>


 Terri
From eugene.teo@eugeneteo.net  Tue Jul  1 18:07:43 2003
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From: Eugene Teo <eugene.teo@eugeneteo.net>
To: Carlo Hamalainen <ch@uqconnect.net>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Hello
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Hi all,

I am sorry but I find these one liner replies meaningless.
It floods everyone's mailbox, and it makes tracking meaningful
posts difficult in the archive. Also, everyone knows you are 
HERE because you subscribed to it. I believe when she mentioned
feedbacks, I am very sure she wants meaningful feedbacks after
she has taught the lesson. 

So, kindly refrain from posting unnecessary replies. I know it
can be fun to hear from one another after a long break of silence
but you got to be considerate to others too.

Many thanks.

Eugene

<quote sender="Carlo Hamalainen">
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 10:42:45PM -0400, Julia Christianson wrote:
> > Hello, I'm here!
> 
> I'm here too :)
> 
> * Carlo pokes Horatio.
> 
> -- Carlo
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses


From suzo@bigpond.net.au  Tue Jul  1 20:42:43 2003
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Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:43:52 +1000
From: Sue Stones <suzo@bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Hello
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In this case she happens to be a he, though that was a very reasonable 
assuption, and if you didn't know a more complimentary one.  And I would like 
to indicae that differ with your point of view.

Whilst I agree that that the posts were a little meaningless, they did in fact 
follow Meredydd's instructions to send an email saying "I'm here"  He of 
course wants to know how many people are signed up  for the course, and how 
many of the people he knows are interested have caught up with the fact that 
the course is starting.  These things are *not* obvious just because they 
have joined the list.  Unless people say that they are here nobody does know 
that they are here.  

sue


On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 06:06 pm, Eugene Teo wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am sorry but I find these one liner replies meaningless.
> It floods everyone's mailbox, and it makes tracking meaningful
> posts difficult in the archive. Also, everyone knows you are
> HERE because you subscribed to it. I believe when she mentioned
> feedbacks, I am very sure she wants meaningful feedbacks after
> she has taught the lesson.
>
> So, kindly refrain from posting unnecessary replies. I know it
> can be fun to hear from one another after a long break of silence
> but you got to be considerate to others too.
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Eugene
>
> <quote sender="Carlo Hamalainen">
>
> > On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 10:42:45PM -0400, Julia Christianson wrote:
> > > Hello, I'm here!
> >
> > I'm here too :)
> >
> > * Carlo pokes Horatio.
> >
> > -- Carlo
> > _______________________________________________
> > Courses mailing list
> > Courses@linuxchix.org
> > http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses

From ngowri@yahoo.com  Tue Jul  1 21:52:11 2003
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        <20030701075928.GA4035@maths.uq.edu.au> <20030701080628.GD631@eugeneteo.net>
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i am also here

n gowri.

Sue Stones wrote:

>Unless people say that they are here nobody does know 
>that they are here.  
>

-- 
Logic is a systematic method of coming to
wrong conclusion with confidence. 



From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Tue Jul  1 20:06:03 2003
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
To: Eugene Teo <eugene.teo@eugeneteo.net>,
        Carlo Hamalainen <ch@uqconnect.net>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Hello
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Hey again,

In fact, I very much did explicitly ask for these "hello" posts, and 
they've helped immensely with guaging reactions. Personally, I'd like 
to have this continue throughout the course, with everyone responding 
at least once to each lesson (as suggested in my introductory mail), as 
it's nice to feel where your "pupils" are at, and how fast they're 
assimilating the material.

In general, if you're subscribed to the entire courses list, but aren't 
particularly interested in this one, and the large amounts of traffic 
it's generating, then head over to the subscription options page for 
courses (linked from the website under "mailing lists"), and subscribe 
to explicit topics rather than generally to the list.

Addressing this issue specifically: Personally, I have a phat pipe, a 
threaded mail client, and a willingness to use either until they creak 
:^) People missing one or more of the above are going to find my 
mass-participation approach irritating. This is a problem.

One solution would be for all the "hello" mails and pure-confirmation 
mails with no other content than "I understood this completely" to be 
sent straight to me via private email. Poll - who feels that this would 
be worthwhile? Or do you not mind it staying on the list? Please email 
me *privately* (avoid annoying people even more :^) ) - answers on a 
postcard to meredydd@everybuddy.com...

Meredydd


On Tuesday 01 July 2003 09:06, Eugene Teo wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am sorry but I find these one liner replies meaningless.
> It floods everyone's mailbox, and it makes tracking meaningful
> posts difficult in the archive. Also, everyone knows you are
> HERE because you subscribed to it. I believe when she mentioned
> feedbacks, I am very sure she wants meaningful feedbacks after
> she has taught the lesson.
>
> So, kindly refrain from posting unnecessary replies. I know it
> can be fun to hear from one another after a long break of silence
> but you got to be considerate to others too.
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Eugene
>
> <quote sender="Carlo Hamalainen">
>
> > On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 10:42:45PM -0400, Julia Christianson wrote:
> > > Hello, I'm here!
> >
> > I'm here too :)
> >
> > * Carlo pokes Horatio.
> >
> > -- Carlo
> > _______________________________________________
> > Courses mailing list
> > Courses@linuxchix.org
> > http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses

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*waves*

/v

--
nobody said it was easy ... nobody said it would be so hard...
-- 


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Hello, I'm here also!
  -Dani


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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Hello; I'm here! :)
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I'm here too!!

Gretchen
From josephbarney1@attbi.com  Wed Jul  2 00:58:27 2003
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I dunno if you're still taking a head count but I am here also.  I've got a 
lot going on, but I'll do my best to keep up.  :)

Joe
-- 
GPG Key: http://DanyDwr.tripod.com/linuxalien.asc
http://redelf.net/~linuxalien

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Wed Jul  2 01:00:42 2003
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Just a quick note - on balance, after some feedback, I've decided that 
the one-liners to the list are going to stay. They carry information, 
they are social, and they give both you and me the idea of a class 
together. I agree that "tell me about who you are and why you're doing 
this course" would have been better than "say hello", but I'm hesitant 
about irritating people unnecessarily.

In other news, lesson one is going up tonight, so stay tuned, and make 
sure all your friends have subscribed!


-- Original message follows, final repeat --

Hello, all!

Welcome to the UNIX filesystems course! This course will teach the
 structure and function of the UNIX filesystem, as well as various fun
 gymnastics you can do with it. The filesystem is a powerful tool, and
 by the end of this course you should be up to using that power in your
 day-to-day work on whatever flavour of UNIX you prefer.

A few words about the structure of this course:
        I am fond of illustrating my points. As a result, these lessons are
 available only as graphical HTML pages. The lessons themselves will
 not be posted to this list. Instead, each lesson post will consist of
 a link to the page on Linuxchix.org. The lessons, however, will be
 discussed on the mailing list. When discussing material in a
 particular lesson, please reply to the post which contains the link to
 that lesson. That way, those of us with threaded mail programs can
 group discussion by the lesson which produced it.

        Please, *please* discuss things on list. I want comments - for one, I
 *need* them to assess where various people are and how fast they are
 learning. Unless the subscriber list gets too large, I think it would
 be a jolly good idea if everyone following this course replies at
 least once to each lesson, even if only to say "I understood this
 lesson completely". This will also give me an idea as to how fast you
 digest lessons, and so when it is appropriate to post the next lesson.

        As I explained in my introduction (link further down), I intend to
 keep this course moving. To this end, I'm building up a buffer of
 unpublished lessons - I'll tell you how big this buffer is every time
 I post a lesson. Here goes.

New lesson:     Lesson 0
Topic:          Introduction
Available at:
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson0.html

This lesson (published before, as a taster for the course) explains
 what I plan to do in this course. It gives an overview of the content
 I'll be covering, as well as what to expect in terms of style and
 lesson format.

Buffer:         1.5 lessons


This message will be repeated a few times, as various people join.
 Apologies to the early comers, who will see it a lot, but I felt that
 I wanted to welcome the new people fairly soon after they come in. So,
 once again, HOWDY, Y'ALL!

Meredydd

From xterragrrl@hotmail.com  Wed Jul  2 01:41:23 2003
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Hello!

My name is Kris, and I'm a linux newbie. ("Hi, Kris"!)

I have a BA and MS in computer science, taught CS at the university for 7 
years, and have been a professional software developer for 6 years. My dev 
experience is totally Windows. I have a wee bit of experience in Unix, from 
grad school. But I need a lot more knowledge as I move into the Linux arena.

I am getting into Linux for two reasons:
1. I am taking a course called "Information Warfare" (about hacking, 
basically), which is 99% linux-based.
2. I am the director of the Pacific NW Region of the ACM Intercollegiate 
Programming Contest, which moved to Linux last year - so I really should 
know how to program on it! :-)

Looking forward to the class!

Kris

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
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From hrvojegoraj@inet.hr  Tue Jul  1 07:59:39 2003
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Hello, I'm here! hrvoje
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Hello, all!

Welcome to the UNIX filesystems course! This course will teach the structure 
and function of the UNIX filesystem, as well as various fun gymnastics you 
can do with it. The filesystem is a powerful tool, and by the end of this 
course you should be up to using that power in your day-to-day work on 
whatever flavour of UNIX you prefer.

A few words about the structure of this course:
        I am fond of illustrating my points. As a result, these lessons are available 
only as graphical HTML pages. The lessons themselves will not be posted to 
this list. Instead, each lesson post will consist of a link to the page on 
Linuxchix.org. The lessons, however, will be discussed on the mailing list. 
When discussing material in a particular lesson, please reply to the post 
which contains the link to that lesson. That way, those of us with threaded 
mail programs can group discussion by the lesson which produced it.

        Please, *please* discuss things on list. I want comments - for one, I *need* 
them to assess where various people are and how fast they are learning. 
Unless the subscriber list gets too large, I think it would be a jolly good 
idea if everyone following this course replies at least once to each lesson, 
even if only to say "I understood this lesson completely". This will also 
give me an idea as to how fast you digest lessons, and so when it is 
appropriate to post the next lesson.

        As I explained in my introduction (link further down), I intend to keep this 
course moving. To this end, I'm building up a buffer of unpublished lessons - 
I'll tell you how big this buffer is every time I post a lesson. Here goes.

New lesson:     Lesson 0
Topic:          Introduction

This lesson (published before, as a taster for the course) explains what I 
plan to do in this course. It gives an overview of the content I'll be 
covering, as well as what to expect in terms of style and lesson format.

Buffer:         1.5 lessons


This message will be repeated a few times, as various people join. Apologies 
to the early comers, who will see it a lot, but I felt that I wanted to 
welcome the new people fairly soon after they come in. So, once again, HOWDY, 
Y'ALL!

Meredydd

From vhvid@pacificcoast.net  Tue Jul  1 11:19:52 2003
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From: Vicki Hvid <vhvid@pacificcoast.net>
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Hello!  What good timing - I have a shiny new install of RedHat 8 as of 
yesterday, and I need all the clues I can get ;)

Vicki

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Tue Jul  1 08:29:54 2003
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Oh, that was glorious. In future, remind me to include a URL, even when I'm 
writing pages of self-important twoddle :^)

http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson0.html

Meredydd

On Tuesday 01 July 2003 23:20, you wrote:
> New lesson:   Lesson 0
> Topic:                Introduction
>
> This lesson (published before, as a taster for the course) explains what I
> plan to do in this course. It gives an overview of the content I'll be
> covering, as well as what to expect in terms of style and lesson format.
>
> Buffer:               1.5 lessons

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Wed Jul  2 08:58:53 2003
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Hello!
        I'm proud to (finally) announce the arrival of Lesson 1 - an 
introduction to the filesystem structure.

        Everyone who is intending to properly follow this course, please reply 
to this message so I know your status. If you understand every last 
word in the lesson, please just send a one-liner to me personally 
(meredydd@everybuddy.com). If there is anything at all you want a hand 
with, or aren't quite sure of, use the list!

In any case, without further ado...

New lesson:     Lesson 1
Topic:          An introduction to the filesystem's structure

This lesson will walk you through the basics of how the UNIX filesystem 
is put together, how it differs from other operating systems with which 
you may be familiar, and what's so cool about it.

URL:            http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson1.html

Buffer: 1

As always, previous lessons are available at 
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem

Meredydd

From emmajane@xtrinsic.com  Sat Jul  5 00:42:14 2003
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From: Emma Jane Hogbin <emmajane@xtrinsic.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 1
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On Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 12:00:07AM +0100, Meredydd wrote:
> URL:          http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson1.html

"For one thing, tying things so strongly to the hardware doesn't do you any
favours when ambiguity comes along. For example - C: generally means "the
first hard disk on the first bus". But what does that mean? If you have
both IDE and SCSI busses, which one is "first"? And what if you have more
than two floppy disks (A: and B:)? The answer, as anyone who's tried it
will tell you, is that the operating system gets confused, inconsistent,
and arbitrary. Not good qualities for computers, whose greatest advantage
is consistency and determinism."

What does "bus" actually mean?

emma

-- 
Emma Jane Hogbin
[[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]]
From vatsan@grove.ufl.edu  Sat Jul  5 04:39:14 2003
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 1
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> What does "bus" actually mean?

bus is a group of parallel lines that carry  bits - data, control or
address.
For eg, you can talk about an 'address bus' or a 'data bus' - multiple
parallel lines that
carry a particular type of data. You can also talk about a single bus that
has all of data,
control and address information (USB - or universal serial bus).

Why is a bus called a bus?
Well, the bus shuttles the bits from source to destination - just like a
real life
bus shuttles people around :-)

--
~vatsan

Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.


From katie@katie-and-rob.org  Tue Jul  8 02:40:19 2003
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:40:07 -0400
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What kinds of media can be partitioned?  Only hard disks?  Only
non-removable media?  Any media?

-- 
Katie Bechtold         http://katie-and-rob.org/

The reason they're called wisdom teeth is that the experience makes you wise.
From conor.daly@met.ie  Tue Jul  8 21:20:42 2003
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On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 12:40:07PM -0400 or thereabouts, Katie Bechtold wrote:
> What kinds of media can be partitioned?  Only hard disks?  Only
> non-removable media?  Any media?

Pretty much any writeable media (with the exception of CDR(W) and floppy
disk).  You can partition hard, zip disks, some flash roms[0] (eg.  USB
memory stick).  There are caveats though:  If you partition the flash card
for your camera differently, the camera may not be able to use it.

CDR(W) uses "pre-mastering" software to make a filesystem so partitions in
the traditional sense are not possible.  A multisession CD could be thought
of as having "partitions" (ie. each session) but they are internally
"mounted" under the "root" of the CD so you cannot see (or manipulate) them
individually.

Floppy disks don't appear to support partitions.  Instead, the floppy disk
is itself the "partition".  

Conor

[0] I'm not sure that this is the case though it seems to be supported by:
http://www.ssv-embedded.de/trm/trm-cf.pdf
and
http://midori.transmeta.com/manual/build.html
-- 
Conor Daly 
Met Eireann, Glasnevin Hill, Dublin 9, Ireland
Ph +353 1 8064276 Fax +353 1 8064247
------------------------------------
bofh.irmet.ie running RedHat Linux 10:58:30  up 4 days, 46 min,  9 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.01


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From conor.daly@met.ie  Mon Jul 14 18:22:43 2003
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On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 04:51:42PM +0100 or thereabouts, gaga wrote:
> 
> > Pretty much any writeable media (with the exception of CDR(W)
> 
> How sure are you about that ? Cause i remember having CD's that had 2 
> partitions, one for pc's, one for apple's...
> 
> Could it be a different kind of partitions ?

These will be "sessions" on the CD.  They're similar to partitions but not
the same in that you can select (and therefore mount) only one session at a
time.  On a "multisession" CD, there will be more than one session but these
will be visible to the system as a single filesystem.

Conor
-- 
Conor Daly 
Met Eireann, Glasnevin Hill, Dublin 9, Ireland
Ph +353 1 8064276 Fax +353 1 8064247
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From random832@rcbooks.org  Mon Jul 14 20:11:54 2003
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On Monday, Jul 14, 2003, at 03:22 America/Indianapolis, Conor Daly 
wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 04:51:42PM +0100 or thereabouts, gaga wrote:
>>
>>> Pretty much any writeable media (with the exception of CDR(W)
>>
>> How sure are you about that ? Cause i remember having CD's that had 2
>> partitions, one for pc's, one for apple's...
>>
>> Could it be a different kind of partitions ?
>
> These will be "sessions" on the CD.  They're similar to partitions but 
> not
> the same in that you can select (and therefore mount) only one session 
> at a
> time.  On a "multisession" CD, there will be more than one session but 
> these
> will be visible to the system as a single filesystem.

 From what I remember, the HFS-Hybrid CD's worked differently from 
multisession discs, and there's also no particular reason you can only 
mount one at a time, if you use cdfs (presents each session as an ISO) 
with loopback, you can mount them separately. For that matter, Mac OS 
X, if you hold option while inserting the disc, it will mount each 
session as a different partition. a "normal" driver will mount all 
sessions one on top of the other, not one at a time.

Back to hybrid discs - I believe they were set up in such a way as for 
the HFS part to be invisible to normal ISO-9660 drivers, and would only 
be visible to a driver that knew specifically about it (either a mac, 
or mounting the cd with -t hfs under linux, or using cdfs)

note on cdfs: this is a fs on linux (i believe it's a patch; not sure) 
which will mount a cd as a folder containing ISO's for each session, an 
image of any HFS hybrid partition, and i think also .cda of each audio 
track.

Disclaimer: all this information should be taken with the consideration 
of the fact that i know nothing.

From katie@katie-and-rob.org  Tue Jul  8 02:49:16 2003
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:48:09 -0400
From: Katie Bechtold <katie@katie-and-rob.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Filesystem Hierarchy Standard
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I just wanted to share this document I found, called the Filesystem
Hierarchy Standard:
        http://www.pathname.com/fhs/2.2/

While its purpose is to serve as a standard (it's referenced by the
Linux Standard Base at
http://www.linuxbase.org/spec/refspecs/LSB_1.3.0/gLSB/gLSB/execenvfhs.html),
it's also good for people who are just curious what a particular
directory tree (say, /opt) is for.

Disclaimer: I don't mean to discourage discussion about the
filesystem hierarchy or suggest, "Here's the f***ing manual, just go
read it." :)

-- 
Katie Bechtold         http://katie-and-rob.org/

air, n.:
        A nutritious substance supplied by a bountiful Providence for the
        fattening of the poor.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Tue Jul  8 05:22:46 2003
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Indeedy! You're jumping somewhat ahead here - I was intending to cover 
the FHS in a later lesson.

Please please don't let this stop you talking about it - I'll be glad to 
know where people here are at - it'll help me when I "formally" cover 
this.

Meredydd

On Monday 07 July 2003 17:48, Katie Bechtold wrote:
> I just wanted to share this document I found, called the Filesystem
> Hierarchy Standard:
>       http://www.pathname.com/fhs/2.2/
>
> While its purpose is to serve as a standard (it's referenced by the
> Linux Standard Base at
> http://www.linuxbase.org/spec/refspecs/LSB_1.3.0/gLSB/gLSB/execenvfhs
>.html), it's also good for people who are just curious what a
> particular directory tree (say, /opt) is for.
>
> Disclaimer: I don't mean to discourage discussion about the
> filesystem hierarchy or suggest, "Here's the f***ing manual, just go
> read it." :)

From patpeck@znet.com  Tue Jul  8 11:00:03 2003
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Meredydd wrote:

> 
> Please please don't let this stop you talking about it - I'll be glad to 
> know where people here are at - it'll help me when I "formally" cover 
> this.

If it helps at all, I took a quick look at it, and it was pretty much 
Greek to me.  I'm not on any kind of network, just working at home with 
my little Linux partition (which is actually a separate HD from my 
Windows one).  I'm afraid I need to start at a pretty basic level - not 
that you need to dumb anything down just for me, just letting you know 
where I am (nowhere).  :-)

-- 

        ...Pat

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Subject: [Courses] [FS] Welcome to the Filesystems course!
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Hello, all!

Welcome to the UNIX filesystems course! This course will teach the structure
and function of the UNIX filesystem, as well as various fun gymnastics you
can do with it. The filesystem is a powerful tool, and by the end of this
course you should be up to using that power in your day-to-day work on
whatever flavour of UNIX you prefer.

A few words about the structure of this course:
        I am fond of illustrating my points. As a result, these lessons are
 available only as graphical HTML pages. The lessons themselves will not be
 posted to this list. Instead, each lesson post will consist of a link to the
 page on Linuxchix.org. The lessons, however, will be discussed on the
 mailing list. When discussing material in a particular lesson, please reply
 to the post which contains the link to that lesson. That way, those of us
 with threaded mail programs can group discussion by the lesson which
 produced it.

        Please, *please* discuss things on list. I want comments - for one, I *need*
them to assess where various people are and how fast they are learning.
Unless the subscriber list gets too large, I think it would be a jolly good
idea if everyone following this course replies at least once to each lesson,
even if only to say "I understood this lesson completely". This will also
give me an idea as to how fast you digest lessons, and so when it is
appropriate to post the next lesson.

        As I explained in my introduction (link further down), I intend to keep this
course moving. To this end, I'm building up a buffer of unpublished lessons -
I'll tell you how big this buffer is every time I post a lesson. Here goes.

New lesson:     Lesson 0
Topic:          Introduction
Available at:   http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson1.html

This lesson (published before, as a taster for the course) explains what I
plan to do in this course. It gives an overview of the content I'll be
covering, as well as what to expect in terms of style and lesson format.

Buffer:         1.5 lessons


This message will be repeated a few times, as various people join. Apologies
to the early comers, who will see it a lot, but I felt that I wanted to
welcome the new people fairly soon after they come in. So, once again, HOWDY,
Y'ALL!

Meredydd

From dcboykin@yahoo.com  Sat Jul  5 12:43:47 2003
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From: Clark Boykin <dcboykin@yahoo.com>
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Hello; I'm Clark and I'm signing up for the file
systems course. Please let me know when I'm supposed
to do anything.

Thanks for offering this course!

Clark
dcboykin@yahoo.com
Austin, Texas

__________________________________
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From patpeck@znet.com  Sat Jul  5 13:06:07 2003
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Hi.  I'm Pat and I'm signing up for this course.  I'm not what you'd 
call swift at Linux as yet, but I'm hoping I'll be able to follow things.

Will we be notified as new lessons go up?

Thanks,

        ...Pat

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Sun Jul  6 02:08:41 2003
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] Hello, latecomers!
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Heya Clark, Patricia!

Welcome to the course - it's already started, but only the first real 
lesson has been posted so far. Feel free to catch up on the 
introduction at http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem, 
where all lessons so far are posted.

One more thing - if you post to this list about the filesystem course, 
please put [FS] in your subject line, as I have. That way, people who 
are only subscribed to the filesystems "topic" can see your message, 
and everyone else doesn't have to.

Next lesson coming out around the beginning of next week - how many 
people haven't finished #1 yet?

Meredydd

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Subject: [Courses] [FS] Lesson Two soon
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This is advance warning that I will be releasing the second lesson 
within the next couple of days. If you haven't yet digested all of 
lesson 1, please try to soon.

If you haven't yet finished it, but do still intend to keep up with the 
course and catch up, please email me! I need to know who is behind, so 
that if a significant proportion are still behind, I can slow down. I'd 
also like to know why someone has all of a sudden stopped posting :-P

Meredydd

From kathywills@kathywillsfamily.com  Tue Jul  8 11:47:09 2003
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Meredydd wrote:

>This is advance warning that I will be releasing the second lesson 
>within the next couple of days. If you haven't yet digested all of 
>lesson 1, please try to soon.
>
>If you haven't yet finished it, but do still intend to keep up with the 
>course and catch up, please email me! I need to know who is behind, so 
>that if a significant proportion are still behind, I can slow down. I'd 
>also like to know why someone has all of a sudden stopped posting :-P
>
>Meredydd
>  
>
Through no fault of my own, my server was down for a few days. I missed 
when Lesson One was posted and then have been trying to solve a browser 
problem since then. Hopefully, I have everything working again now. I 
tried to get to the linuxchix site this morning to see the archives so I 
would know what I missed. For some reason the site wouldn' t load. I'll 
try again later.

-- 
Kathy Wills

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Genealogy Web Site: http://www.kathywillsfamily.com               +
+                                                                   +
+ Summit Group Web Site: http://www.tsginfo.com/index.php?rc=VW4374 +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Fri Jul 11 09:28:06 2003
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Wow. Maria was right - all I needed to do was to wait for the right 
phase of the moon and try the incantation again. At bloody last, we 
have a new lesson, folks!

Without further ado:

New lesson:     Lesson 2
Topic:          Some more filesystem concepts

This lesson is something of a digression into topics many of you will 
know already by now - relative paths, permissions, and symbolic links.

URL:            http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson2.html

Buffer: EMPTY (Yes, I'll be working my tail off in the next couple of
        days. Please do poke me if you see me on IRC, and remind me to do it!)

Meredydd

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun Jul 13 12:56:17 2003
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Filesystem Course lesson 2
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On Thursday 10 July 2003 4:27 pm, Meredydd wrote:
> Wow. Maria was right - all I needed to do was to wait for the right
> phase of the moon and try the incantation again. At bloody last, we
> have a new lesson, folks!
>
> Without further ado:
>
> New lesson:   Lesson 2
> Topic:                Some more filesystem concepts
>
> This lesson is something of a digression into topics many of you will
> know already by now - relative paths, permissions, and symbolic links.
>
> URL:          http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson2.html
>
> Buffer:       EMPTY (Yes, I'll be working my tail off in the next couple of
>       days. Please do poke me if you see me on IRC, and remind me to do it!)
>
> Meredydd
>

Nice work, Meredydd! I hoist a foaming brew to you.  :)
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
www.tuxcomputing.com
this message brought to you
by Libranet 2.7 and Kmail
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From suzo@bigpond.net.au  Wed Jul 16 23:11:56 2003
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Filesystem Course lesson 2
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Thanks Meredydd, 
A couple of questions/comments arise for me from this lesson.

I notice that you refer to direcotries with an ending slash 
eg web/  ../   ./
Whereas I think of directories as files ("everything in Unix is a file"), 
hence the above directorys are
 web   ..    .

What is the diference? 



Secondly I find this statemet to be unclear, I read it and look for an 
explanation.  It is a general statement about symbolic links.

>One more important point, and one you should never forget: Symbolic links are 
>relative!.


What you provided was an example which helps only a little  (see below)


>ln -s web/ backups/

>...it would have created the link, but then failed horribly (with a "file not 
>found" error) when I tried to follow it. The reason? The path "web/" would 
>have been evaluated relative to the directory where the link is 
>(/home/meredydd/backups/), not the directory we were in when we created the 
>link (/home/meredydd/).


In this example we see that when a symbolic link is created the "function" (I 
don't know what the correct designation here should be) ln interprets the 
pathname of the actual file/directory  relative to the directory which is to 
contain the symbolic link.

This is a spicific statement about ln which is used to *create symbolic 
links*.  (to my mind this is quite different to the link itself).

So my question is, is the example the sum total of the way in which "Symbolic 
links are relative!."  or is there more to it.   If it is the latter could 
you please explain some more, and give more examples.

thanks
sue



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>I notice that you refer to direcotries with an ending slash
>eg web/  ../   ./
>Whereas I think of directories as files ("everything in Unix is a file"),
>hence the above directorys are
>  web   ..    .

In almost all cases[1] you can have a trailing slash or not; there's no 
difference. I think that "ls" can be configured (somehow) to list 
directories with or without a trailing slash. It's all about preference.

[1] As usual, there are messed-up exceptions. I've noticed that when I use 
"ls -ld" on symbolic links that point to directories, the result is 
slightly different depending on whether I include a trailing slash.

>ln interprets the pathname of the actual file/directory relative to
>the directory which is to contain the symbolic link.

Yes, that's sum total of the relativity of symbolic links.

--
    Many hacker groups, in anonymous interviews with Mi2g, have
    said that they prefer attacking Linux systems and very rarely
    target anything running Windows, simply because to do so is
    far too easy...
      - Jan Andresen, computer security expert at Mi2g
        (a computer security consulting firm)

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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Filesystem Course lesson 2
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On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:46 pm, Dan Richter wrote:

> >ln interprets the pathname of the actual file/directory relative to
> >the directory which is to contain the symbolic link.
>
> Yes, that's sum total of the relativity of symbolic links.


So really it is not symbolic links that are relative, but rather the utility 
that creates them that behaves in a strange way.

sue
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> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:46 pm, Dan Richter wrote:
> > >ln interprets the pathname of the actual file/directory relative to
> > >the directory which is to contain the symbolic link.
> >
> > Yes, that's sum total of the relativity of symbolic links.
>
>
> So really it is not symbolic links that are relative, but rather the
utility
> that creates them that behaves in a strange way.


symbolic names or 'soft links' are "names" - ie, a file is created that
'links' to a
'name'. So if you created a symbolic link 'bar' to the name
'../foo' - then 'bar' would *always* try to resolve to '../foo'
irrespective of what your CWD might be. so it is upto the creator of the
soft
link to determine if the soft link were relative or not. For eg, if you
created
a softlink to /usr/local/bin, it would never be relative. but if you created
a
soft link to 'bin' while your CWD is /usr/local, the soft link would indeed
be relative.

this is in contrast with 'hard' links that link to inodes. in this case,
there is no ambiguity at all. The reason hard links are not popular, imo,
is that they can not span filesystems. soft links work everywhere, so they
get used everywhere!


~vatsan

Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
Reaching after something, touching nothing, is all I ever do.

From daniel.richter@wimba.com  Thu Jul 17 00:48:43 2003
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>So really it is not symbolic links that are relative, but rather the utility
>that creates them that behaves in a strange way.

Symbolic links are a part of the operating system, which is why it's 
impossible to port "ln" to Windows.   :-)

"ln" is a very simple utility that uses this built-in feature of the 
operating system. So I think it's more correct to say that the operating 
system interprets the link in an unintuitive way. Of course, it wouldn't be 
too hard to make "ln" automatically make the link absolute and/or issue a 
warning if the target file doesn't exist, so I guess you could put it 
either way.

--

From random832@rcbooks.org  Sat Jul 19 01:09:10 2003
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On Wednesday, Jul 16, 2003, at 09:17 America/Indianapolis, Sue Stones 
wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:46 pm, Dan Richter wrote:
>
>>> ln interprets the pathname of the actual file/directory relative to
>>> the directory which is to contain the symbolic link.
>>
>> Yes, that's sum total of the relativity of symbolic links.
>
>
> So really it is not symbolic links that are relative, but rather the 
> utility
> that creates them that behaves in a strange way.

No, it's the links... the utility just puts the whole target string you 
pass to it in the symlink without interpreting it... the link doesn't 
point to a file or anything, it contains a simple string.

--Random832

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On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:46 pm, Dan Richter wrote:
> In almost all cases[1] you can have a trailing slash or not; there's no
> difference. I think that "ls" can be configured (somehow) to list
> directories with or without a trailing slash. It's all about preference.

That's easy.

ls lists just the name by default, but bash has established an alias like 
this.

alias ls='ls -F --color=auto'

I find this anoying, especially since I have tried to remove a default alias 
before only to discover it was only removed in some directories.  There is 
only one thing worse than having an alias force you to work in a different 
way to what you want to do, and that is having it behave different ways in 
different directories.

Maybe I should send this to Jen for her new book on configuring Linux.

sue
From dom_incollingo@linuxmail.org  Tue Jul 15 00:35:56 2003
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 2 - Symlinks Question
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Hello,

I really enjoyed lesson 2.  Thanks very much!  But I'm having trouble understanding the ../ directory in the target directory of a symbolic link.

I created the following directories:

   /home/dom/tempStuff/testx/sub1/sub2/sub3
   /home/dom/tempStuff/testy

When the working directory was set to /home/dom/tempStuff, I executed the following command to create a symbolic link:

   ln -s /home/dom/tempStuff/testx/ testy/

After I cd'ed into /home/dom/tempStuff/testy/testx, I executed "ls -la .."  The ls command showed the contents of /home/dom/tempStuff/ - the parent of the target. This makes perfect sense so far. (Just as the course explained.) 

But when I execute "cd ..", the working directory becomes /home/dom/tempStuff/testy.   Since the ../ directory within /home/dom/tempStuff/testy/testx points to /home/dom/tempStuff, I would have expected the "cd .." command to change the working directory to /home/dom/tempStuff.  What am I misunderstanding?

Thanks very much.

Dom
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> But when I execute "cd ..", the working directory becomes 
> /home/dom/tempStuff/testy.   Since the ../ directory within 
> /home/dom/tempStuff/testy/testx points to /home/dom/tempStuff, I would 
> have expected the "cd .." command to change the working directory to 
> /home/dom/tempStuff.  What am I misunderstanding?

The implementation of the "cd" builtin in your shell. what shell are 
you using?

From efindel@earthlink.net  Tue Jul 15 02:04:22 2003
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From: Travis Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
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Monday, July 14, 2003, 10:34:49 AM, Dom Incollingo wrote:

> Hello,

> I really enjoyed lesson 2.  Thanks very much!  But I'm having trouble understanding the ../ directory in the target directory of a symbolic link.

> I created the following directories:

>    /home/dom/tempStuff/testx/sub1/sub2/sub3
>    /home/dom/tempStuff/testy

> When the working directory was set to /home/dom/tempStuff, I executed the
> following command to create a symbolic link:

>    ln -s /home/dom/tempStuff/testx/ testy/

> After I cd'ed into /home/dom/tempStuff/testy/testx, I executed "ls -la .."
> The ls command showed the contents of /home/dom/tempStuff/ - the parent of
> the target. This makes perfect sense so far. (Just as the course explained.)

> But when I execute "cd ..", the working directory becomes
> /home/dom/tempStuff/testy.   Since the ../ directory within
> /home/dom/tempStuff/testy/testx points to /home/dom/tempStuff, I
> would have expected the "cd .." command to change the working
> directory to /home/dom/tempStuff.  What am I misunderstanding?

It varies with different shells.  Some shells actually check the ".."
entry in the directory and take you wherever it points.  Others simply
assume that ".." will always be the directory "above" the current one
in the working path, and don't look at the actual entry.

Which behavior is better?  Well... it depends.  Having ".." go to the
real entry makes logical sense, but it can be confusing in the case of
directories which are linked to somewhere else in the file tree.  For
example, if /usr/adm is a symlink to /var/adm, then using the first
method, doing:

cd /usr/adm
cd ..

will result in being in /var ... which can be confusing to many new
users.  Using the second method, it results in being in /usr, which
makes more "intuitive sense" to many people.

Things can also get fun using the first method when there are symlinks
pointing "shallow" directories to "deep" directories.  For example,
when I was working at FSU's Computer Science department, we had
upwards of 150 Unix workstations, with five different major
architecture/OS combinations.  To keep from spending most of our time
copying things around (and because a lot of the older machines had
very small hard disks), most software was installed under
/usr/local... which was a symlink to a different NFS-mounted
directory, depending on the architecture and OS.

So, doing

cd /usr/local/bin

might actually put you in something like

/home/cs20/systems/sun4x/solaris/usr/local/bin

Someone wanting to go from there to /usr/bin might type

cd ../../bin

but that would error, since /home/cs20/systems/sun4x/solaris/usr/bin
did not exist.  They'd think "WTF?  I know /usr/bin exists!  If it
didn't the system wouldn't work!"  They'd then either start trying to
investigate and (1) realize what was going on, or (2) get enormously
confused, or (3) call or email Systems and report that something's
wrong.

For obvious reasons, we found shells which just "fudged" cd .. to be a
blessing in that environment.


Now, there are a couple of minus sides...

 - cd is a shell internal command, but cp, ls, mv, etc. are not.  As
   far as I know, all of those actually read the ".." entry instead
   of trying to "fudge" things.  I suppose one could write a shell to
   interpret ".." in commands before passing it on, but I don't know
   of any that do, and it seems fraught with possibilities for error.

 - Some crackers have taken advantage of the fact that many shells do
   ignore the ".." entry in directories... by unlinking ".." and
   creating a subdirectory named "..".  This then functions as a
   nicely hidden place to plunk things.  No one's going to look twice
   at ".." -- they're just going to assume that it's what it usually
   is.  Unless someone does an "ls .." or the like, they're never
   going to notice it, unless/until they run a file system check.

   (Some crackers use "...".  A normal "ls" doesn't show dotfiles,
   and in an ls -a, many people will just subconsciously skip the "."
   and ".." entries... and not notice that there's a "..." as well.
   And, of course, a file system check won't complain about "..."
   existing -- it's a strange directory name, but a legal one.)

-- 
Travis Casey
efindel@earthlink.net

From elwing@elwing.org  Tue Jul 15 02:27:21 2003
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>  - Some crackers have taken advantage of the fact that many shells do
>    ignore the ".." entry in directories... by unlinking ".." and
>    creating a subdirectory named "..".  This then functions as a
>    nicely hidden place to plunk things.  No one's going to look twice
>    at ".." -- they're just going to assume that it's what it usually
>    is.  Unless someone does an "ls .." or the like, they're never
>    going to notice it, unless/until they run a file system check.
>
>    (Some crackers use "...".  A normal "ls" doesn't show dotfiles,
>    and in an ls -a, many people will just subconsciously skip the "."
>    and ".." entries... and not notice that there's a "..." as well.
>    And, of course, a file system check won't complain about "..."
>    existing -- it's a strange directory name, but a legal one.)
>

Another popular cracker technique is to create directories called ".. "
(with that extra space in there).  Including non-printable characters can
make it miserable for an admin to figure out the exact name much less
delete it without deleting the ".." directory as well.


Laura

From random832@rcbooks.org  Tue Jul 15 19:42:51 2003
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accidentally sent to only sender first

On Monday, Jul 14, 2003, at 11:04 America/Indianapolis, Travis Casey 
wrote:
> Someone wanting to go from there to /usr/bin might type
>
> cd ../../bin
>
> but that would error, since /home/cs20/systems/sun4x/solaris/usr/bin
> did not exist.  They'd think "WTF?  I know /usr/bin exists!  If it
> didn't the system wouldn't work!"  They'd then either start trying to
> investigate and (1) realize what was going on, or (2) get enormously
> confused, or (3) call or email Systems and report that something's
> wrong.

the "fudged" cd won't help... as far as i know, while ".." is a special 
case, "../" or "../../bin" by extension, are not.

--Random832, having picked up the sig habit from a list that requires 
it ;P

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From: Travis Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 2 - Symlinks Question
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On Tuesday 15 July 2003 05:42, Random wrote:
> On Monday, Jul 14, 2003, at 11:04 America/Indianapolis, Travis Casey
>
> wrote:
> > Someone wanting to go from there to /usr/bin might type
> >
> > cd ../../bin
> >
> > but that would error, since /home/cs20/systems/sun4x/solaris/usr/bin
> > did not exist.  They'd think "WTF?  I know /usr/bin exists!  If it
> > didn't the system wouldn't work!"  They'd then either start trying to
> > investigate and (1) realize what was going on, or (2) get enormously
> > confused, or (3) call or email Systems and report that something's
> > wrong.
>
> the "fudged" cd won't help... as far as i know, while ".." is a special
> case, "../" or "../../bin" by extension, are not.

It works for me with bash... I have a symlink in /home/casey named 
"new-ebook" which goes to 
"./.brag/news.earthlink.net/alt.binaries.e-book.rpg/finished".

I just tried it with it.  Doing:

cd new-ebook
cd ../bin

takes me to /home/casey/bin, not to the (non-existent) 
/home/casey/.brag/news.earthlink.net/alt.binaries.e-book.rpg/bin .

And

cd /home/casey
cd new-ebook
cd ../../ehcasey

takes me to /home/ehcasey.


So the version of bash I have seems to do it, at least.

--
       |\      _,,,---,,_     Travis S. Casey  <efindel@earthlink.net>
 ZZzz  /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_   No one agrees with me.  Not even me.
      |,4-  ) )-,_..;\ (  `'-' 
     '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) 

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Tue Jul 15 23:16:54 2003
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
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On Tuesday 15 July 2003 10:42, Random wrote:
> the "fudged" cd won't help... as far as i know, while ".." is a
> special case, "../" or "../../bin" by extension, are not.

Actually, it will, as Travis has just demonstrated. Bash handles any 
instance of .. itself (which makes sense - it's got to, otherwise you'd 
end up with a prompt looking like: 
meredydd@rhodium:~/programming/../web$)

By the way, sorry for not weighing in to answer questions much here, but 
the local residents seem to be doing a decent job of it, and I'm still 
working on L3... :^)

Meredydd

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----- Original Message -----
From: Random <random832@rcbooks.org>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:48:36 -0500
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 2 - Symlinks Question

> > But when I execute "cd ..", the working directory becomes 
> > /home/dom/tempStuff/testy.   Since the ../ directory within 
> > /home/dom/tempStuff/testy/testx points to /home/dom/tempStuff, I would 
> > have expected the "cd .." command to change the working directory to 
> > /home/dom/tempStuff.  What am I misunderstanding?
> 
> The implementation of the "cd" builtin in your shell. what shell are 
> you using?
> 

I'm using bash.
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses

-- 
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From: "Dom Incollingo" <dom_incollingo@linuxmail.org>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 2 - Symlinks Question - Thanks
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Thanks very much to everyone that responded.  The info you gave me helps quite a bit.  And I'm really looking forward to lesson 3!

Dom

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From meredydd@lazzurs.net  Thu Jul 17 01:49:34 2003
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] Symbolic links, the amazing disappearing laptop,
 and other spectacles
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Many apologies, everyone. At the moment, I'm typing this on a webmail
interface, on a bitterly-contested family computer, so I can't be long.

In any case - I think those symbolic links need clearing up a bit. Some of
the posts here are completely accurate, and some are (unintentionally) a
bit misleading. I'm sorry about this, but I really can't explain now. I'll
be getting my laptop sometime today or tomorrow, just hang on please!

As for the directories - this I *can* deal with here. The actual
filesystem entity you refer to with the path "/usr" is the same as the
entity you refer to with "/usr/". It's just that the first of those two
naming conventions doesn't specify whether it's a file called "usr" in the
directory "/", or a directory. The second makes it abundantly clear - a
trailing slash means a directory. Hence, I use the trailing slash whenever
I talk about directories.

This is, in fact, the cause of the behavioural differences with certain
commands. Many commands, such as "cp", "mv" and even "ln", can operate in
two modes. The first is common sense - they take two arguments. For
example:

cp file1 file2
   ...makes a copy of the file "file1" called "file2"

mv file1 file2
   ...renames "file1" to "file2"

ln -s file1 file2
   ...creates a symbolic link to "file1", called "file2"

However, there's also a second mode:

cp file1 file2 ... fileX dest_dir/
   ...makes a copy of each of file1 ... fileX, with the same name in each
case, and puts them in the directory dest_dir/

mv file1 file2 ... fileX dest_dir/
   ...moves file1 ... fileX into the directory dest_dir/

ln -s file1 file2 ... fileX dest_dir/
   ...makes a symlink to each of file1 ... fileX in the directory
dest_dir. Note that because symbolic links contain relative paths, if
the filenames aren't absolute paths, then you will end up with a link
in dest_dir/ called "file1", pointing to "file1" - that is, itself, and
so on. Not good.


In any case, all of these programs have to decide for themselves which
form of the command you are using! This makes things difficult in
ambiguous cases. For example, take this command:

cp path1 path2

Oh, great, now we're stuck. How is "cp" supposed to tell which form of the
command we're using? In fact, what it does is to look at path2 - ask the
operating system what it is.

If it's a directory, then we're using form 2 - just copy path1 into path2/.

If it's a file, then we're using form 1 of the command - overwrite path2
with a copy of path1 (unless you passed it the -i option, in which case
ask you first. -i is a good thing, it has saved my bacon on numerous
occasions. Use it.).

And finally, we get back to the trailing slash. If we repeat the above
command, but make sure that path2 has a slash on the end of it, "cp" will
*know* we're talking about a directory here. And if it's not, then the
operating system will complain ("path2: not a directory") when "cp" tries
to do directory-type things to path2, like list its contents.

Hmm...not exactly sure how that explanation qualifies as either "short" or
"quick", but my little sister wants the computer so I think I'll leave it
at:

HTH, HAND

Meredydd

From hobbit@aloss.ukuu.org.uk  Sat Jul 19 01:32:22 2003
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From: Telsa Gwynne <hobbit@aloss.ukuu.org.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] supplemental question on cp and mv
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On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 03:52:50PM -0000 or thereabouts, meredydd@lazzurs.net wrote:
> cp file1 file2
>    ...makes a copy of the file "file1" called "file2"
> 
> mv file1 file2
>    ...renames "file1" to "file2"

Is this why, on a slow computer or a very busy computer, you see 
a big time difference between mv'ing very large files around (fast) 
and cp'ing them (not so fast)

You can use the 'time' command to check this: 

time mv oldbigfilename newbigfilename
time cp oldbigfilename newbigfilename

I noticed this with some large-ish files on a busy computer the
other day. The moving was fine; but the copying made my ogg-player
hiccup!

Telsa
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Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:32:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] supplemental question on cp and mv
From: "Meredydd Luff" <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
To: "Telsa Gwynne" <hobbit@aloss.ukuu.org.uk>
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Telsa Gwynne said:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 03:52:50PM -0000 or thereabouts,
> meredydd@lazzurs.net wrote:
>> cp file1 file2
>>    ...makes a copy of the file "file1" called "file2"
>>
>> mv file1 file2
>>    ...renames "file1" to "file2"
>
> Is this why, on a slow computer or a very busy computer, you see
> a big time difference between mv'ing very large files around (fast)
> and cp'ing them (not so fast)

Indeed it is. 'mv' does not move data around on a disk - it just points a
different path at the same set of data on the disk. 'cp' copies every
byte. One exception is if the 'mv' is happening across different volumes,
in which case it's the same as cp+rm.

Meredydd

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Fri Jul 25 02:38:28 2003
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] Finally, addressing those symlink questions
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I've tried to answer as many of your questions about symbolic links as I 
can, and ended up writing an entire new lesson. So it goes...

New lesson:     Lesson 2 supplement
Topic:          More on symbolic links

This supplement attempts to answer the questions raised over the 
discussion of symbolic links in Lesson 2

URL:                    http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson2.html

Buffer:         0.25 lessons - I've taken time out from L3 to write this
                        supplement, please keep poking me...

Meredydd

From vatsan@grove.ufl.edu  Fri Jul 25 08:34:18 2003
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From: "Madhavan, Srivatsan" <vatsan@grove.ufl.edu>
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] a socket + finger question
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Hi --

I might be jumping ahead of time, too far ahead - but i am too
curious to know if anyone can explain this. 

I have a .plan file on my home directory (in my school account).
Users withing the same network can finger me, and see the contents
of  the .plan file as well. 

I replaced the .plan file with a named pipe called .plan,
and set up a background process whose job was to pick
a new fortune cookie each time and write it to .plan.

My idea was that everytime somebody finger'ed me, they'd
get a new fortune cookie too. But it didn't work. finger 
behaved as if there was no .plan file at all. Any clue why ? 

--
Vatsan. 

Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. 

From laurel@sdf.lonestar.org  Fri Jul 25 09:24:35 2003
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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:22:47 -0700
From: Laurel Fan <laurel@sdf.lonestar.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] a socket + finger question
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On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 12:59:51PM -0400, Madhavan, Srivatsan wrote:
> I replaced the .plan file with a named pipe called .plan,
> and set up a background process whose job was to pick
> a new fortune cookie each time and write it to .plan.
> 
> My idea was that everytime somebody finger'ed me, they'd
> get a new fortune cookie too. But it didn't work. finger 
> behaved as if there was no .plan file at all. Any clue why ? 

One thing to check.  Is your home directory on a network filesystem,
such as nfs?  If you can access your home directory from many
different machines, it probably is.  Named pipes do not work on most
network filesystems.

-- 
laurel@sdf.lonestar.org
http://dreadnought.gorgorg.org
From elwing@elwing.org  Fri Jul 25 09:26:20 2003
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] a socket + finger question
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I haven't looked at the source code for fingerd, but for security 
reasons, you don't want to be opening a named pipe.  It's possible for 
programs to check what type of file it's trying to open, and ignore as 
appropriate.  More than likely, this is what's going on with fingerd

Laura



On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 12:59  PM, Madhavan, Srivatsan wrote:

> Hi --
>
> I might be jumping ahead of time, too far ahead - but i am too
> curious to know if anyone can explain this.
>
> I have a .plan file on my home directory (in my school account).
> Users withing the same network can finger me, and see the contents
> of  the .plan file as well.
>
> I replaced the .plan file with a named pipe called .plan,
> and set up a background process whose job was to pick
> a new fortune cookie each time and write it to .plan.
>
> My idea was that everytime somebody finger'ed me, they'd
> get a new fortune cookie too. But it didn't work. finger
> behaved as if there was no .plan file at all. Any clue why ?
>
> --
> Vatsan.
>
> Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>
>

From qirien@icecavern.net  Fri Jul 25 23:57:30 2003
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From: Andrea Landaker <qirien@icecavern.net>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Finally, addressing those symlink questions
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:56:58 -0600
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I believe the URL you meant to send was: 
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson2a.html
right?  :-)

> New lesson:   Lesson 2 supplement
> Topic:                More on symbolic links
>
> This supplement attempts to answer the questions raised over the
> discussion of symbolic links in Lesson 2
>
> URL:                  http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson2.html

-- 
Andrea Landaker
http://www.icecavern.net/~qirien/

From katie@katie-and-rob.org  Thu Aug 14 07:31:49 2003
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On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Meredydd wrote:
> New lesson:   Lesson 2 supplement
> Topic:                More on symbolic links
> URL:                  http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson2.html

I think that URL should instead be this:
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson2a.html

--=20
Katie Bechtold         http://katie-and-rob.org/

If a group of _N persons implements a COBOL compiler, there will be _
N-1
passes.  Someone in the group has to be the manager.
                -- T. Cheatham
From vatsan@grove.ufl.edu  Fri Jul 25 14:54:52 2003
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From: "Vatsan Madhavan" <vatsan@grove.ufl.edu>
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Subject: Fw: [Courses] [FS] a socket + finger question
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resend to list..
-v

> > One thing to check.  Is your home directory on a network filesystem,
> > such as nfs?  If you can access your home directory from many
> > different machines, it probably is.  Named pipes do not work on most
> > network filesystems.
>
> Yes, it is on a nfs mounted filesystem. I've tested it otherwise, and
named
> pipes work fine. Perhaps Laura Bowser's explanation could explain the
> behaviour. But what security problems could potentially arise ?
>
> -Vatsan.
>
>


From elwing@elwing.org  Fri Jul 25 21:51:14 2003
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Subject: Re: Fw: [Courses] [FS] a socket + finger question
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On the security issues of fingerd:

   besides the historical flaw (the famous Morris worm), fingerd is 
network code which accepts input from both users (your .plan file) and 
clients - the finger program.  Coding a secure program is very 
difficult, *especially* when dealing with user/client input. - you 
should *never* trust the client.

specific to this example, a named pipe can be used to "link" to a 
program (as you demonstrated).  it can also be used to point to 
devices.  Devices in user hands are dangerous - and fingerd can be run 
as root, meaning it has total and complete access to the file system.  
As far as I know, it does not drop privileges where appropriate (such 
as OpenSSH does), so it potentially has full, unfettered access to the 
file system.

What would happen if you were to set up the named pipe to cat the 
/etc/passwd or /etc/shadow file?  From the point of view of the sysadm 
- this is a *VERY* bad thing.  You could also set your .plan file to 
symlink to either file.

Because this is generally a Bad Thing (tm), the programmers of fingerd 
have probably checked the status of the file (with fstat(2)), and then 
ignore links, named pipes, directories, and probably everything except 
plain old files.

It's also possible that the fingerd writers made this a compile 
time/run time option for the admin to decide. - I haven't looked at the 
code.

Laura


On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 12:54  AM, Vatsan Madhavan wrote:

> resend to list..
> -v
>
>>> One thing to check.  Is your home directory on a network filesystem,
>>> such as nfs?  If you can access your home directory from many
>>> different machines, it probably is.  Named pipes do not work on most
>>> network filesystems.
>>
>> Yes, it is on a nfs mounted filesystem. I've tested it otherwise, and
> named
>> pipes work fine. Perhaps Laura Bowser's explanation could explain the
>> behaviour. But what security problems could potentially arise ?
>>
>> -Vatsan.
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>
>

From laurel@sdf.lonestar.org  Sat Jul 26 01:21:04 2003
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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:18:33 -0700
From: Laurel Fan <laurel@sdf.lonestar.org>
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Subject: Re: Fw: [Courses] [FS] a socket + finger question
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On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 12:54:38AM -0400, Vatsan Madhavan wrote: 
> Yes, it is on a nfs mounted filesystem. I've tested it otherwise,
> and named pipes work fine.

Besides the security concerns already explained, there are practical
reasons why named pipes on an nfs filesystem do not work between
different hosts (sometimes they will work on a single host).  In
short, implementing named pipes would require a different sort of
communication between the different hosts, and the implementors of the
nfs protocol probably felt that the benefits of having named pipes
would not justify the added complexity and work this would require.

There is an entry in the Unix FAQ about .plan file named pipes that
talks about both the nfs and security issues:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/faq/part4/section-9.html

-- 
laurel@sdf.lonestar.org
http://dreadnought.gorgorg.org
From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Mon Aug  4 21:20:04 2003
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
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Hey all,
        I'm sorry to spring this on everyone like this, but I'm off to Austria 
for the next four weeks, starting at the crack of dawn tomorrow 
morning. For that time, I will have no Internet connectivity whatsoever 
(*gasp*). The UNIX Filesystem course will be put on hold until I come 
back (at which point I'll release Lesson 3 immediately) - sorry about 
that, especially considering that I didn't warn you. The idea was that 
I would have a couple of lessons in my buffer, and get someone else to 
roll them out over the summer, but a lot of other things happened. Oh, 
well, c'est la vie. By the time I get back, I should have one hell of a 
buffer! Programming moderation is being done almost singlehandedly by 
Hamster anyway, so I doubt you'll miss me there, and the IRC channel 
will probably be well shot of me, but I thought I'd wave goodbye here 
anyway :^)

See you on the flipside!

Meredydd

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Well I hope that you have a good holiday.  I understand that things just 
happen, and you end up not having the time to do the things that you plan.  
And not getting arround to things like telling us that you are going.

As I am feeling similarly pressured and have not had time to work through the 
last lesson, it actually suits me to have a few weeks to catch up!  

I hope that you will have great tales of holiday living when you return.  I am 
willing to bet that you don't  miss the internet after the first few days.

sue


On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:14 pm, Meredydd wrote:
> Hey all,
>       I'm sorry to spring this on everyone like this, but I'm off to Austria
> for the next four weeks, starting at the crack of dawn tomorrow
> morning. For that time, I will have no Internet connectivity whatsoever
> (*gasp*). The UNIX Filesystem course will be put on hold until I come
> back (at which point I'll release Lesson 3 immediately) - sorry about
> that, especially considering that I didn't warn you. The idea was that
> I would have a couple of lessons in my buffer, and get someone else to
> roll them out over the summer, but a lot of other things happened. Oh,
> well, c'est la vie. By the time I get back, I should have one hell of a
> buffer! Programming moderation is being done almost singlehandedly by
> Hamster anyway, so I doubt you'll miss me there, and the IRC channel
> will probably be well shot of me, but I thought I'd wave goodbye here
> anyway :^)
>
> See you on the flipside!
>
> Meredydd
>
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Sat Aug 30 22:53:47 2003
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 3 is with us at last!
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New lesson:     Lesson 3
Topic:          Devices, and a rough guide to how the filesystem works

This is the long-awaited Lesson 3 - enjoy!

URL:                    
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson3.html

Buffer: 1.5 lessons

As always, please send feedback. If you don't have any questions (just a 
"read and understood" message), please send privately, otherwise use 
the list.

Meredydd

From katie@katie-and-rob.org  Thu Sep 11 05:13:15 2003
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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:12:38 -0400
From: Katie Bechtold <katie@katie-and-rob.org>
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] message from Meredydd
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I'm passing on this message from Meredydd:

> I have only intermittent email access at the moment, so don't expect 
> to see me around on the list for a few days (except via this route), 
> but I haven't been seeing many confirmation messages, and would like 
> people to send some please!

> Lesson 4 is written and waiting to go out.

-- 
Katie Bechtold         http://katie-and-rob.org/

Every successful person has had failures but repeated failure is no
guarantee of eventual success.
From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Mon Nov 10 23:02:47 2003
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org, grrltalk@linuxchix.org,
        techtalk@linuxchix.org
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Subject: [Courses] [FS] I'm back! Is there still interest?
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Hello again!

Yes, I'm back (cue screams), with network in my cozy little cubby once 
more. I'll probably take a while to get back up to speed (there seem to 
be a lot of new people here since I was last around - hello to you 
all!), but once I'm properly back in the groove, how much interest is 
there in the resumption of my Filesystems course?

For those who haven't seen it, it's an introduction to the way that UNIX 
organises its file tree, what you can do with it, and why it's so cool.  
I completed three and a half lessons (available at 
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem), after which I 
ended up the wrong side of a nasty firewall and that was pretty much 
that, until now.

So, to summarise - is there still an interest in this course? If so, I 
will continue it. If not, I will try to wrap it up and leave it on the 
website in a state of graceful obsolesence. Your call.

Meredydd

From proot.karine@wanadoo.fr  Tue Nov 11 00:13:51 2003
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] I'm back! Is there still interest?
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Please continue :)
I just started reading the course (I discovered Linuxchix just a while ago),
but I sure would like it to go as far as you can.

Karine

From dom_incollingo@linuxmail.org  Tue Nov 11 00:37:24 2003
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] I'm back! Is there still interest?
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> 
> So, to summarise - is there still an interest in this course? If so, I 
> will continue it. If not, I will try to wrap it up and leave it on the 
> website in a state of graceful obsolesence. Your call.
> 
> Meredydd
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses


I'm interested in continuing!   Thanks.
From priour.gaetan@ifrance.com  Tue Nov 11 02:45:54 2003
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] I'm back! Is there still interest?
From: PRIOUR Gaetan <priour.gaetan@ifrance.com>
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Yes there is, and a lot, please do continue :)

On Mon, 2003-11-10 at 13:37, Dom Incollingo wrote:
> >=20
> > So, to summarise - is there still an interest in this course? If so, I=20
> > will continue it. If not, I will try to wrap it up and leave it on the=20
> > website in a state of graceful obsolesence. Your call.
> >=20
> > Meredydd
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Courses mailing list
> > Courses@linuxchix.org
> > http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>=20
>=20
> I'm interested in continuing!   Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
> _____________________________________________________________________
> Envie de discuter en "live" avec vos amis ? T=E9l=E9charger MSN Messenger
> http://www.ifrance.com/_reloc/m la 1=E8re messagerie instantan=E9e de Fra=
nce
--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
PRIOUR Gaetan
http://pixmin.org/
priour.gaetan@ifrance.com

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Tue Nov 11 04:28:48 2003
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>(by way of Meredydd
        <meredydd@everybuddy.com>)
Subject: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 4
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All right, let's get this show on the road!

New lesson:     Lesson 4
Topic:          Use of the "mount" command, and virtual filesystems

URL:
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson4.html

Buffer: 0.5 lessons

As always, please send feedback. If you don't have any questions (just
 a "read and understood" message), please send privately, otherwise use
 the list.

Meredydd

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Sun Nov 16 22:48:08 2003
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To: "Dom Incollingo" <dom_incollingo@linuxmail.org>,
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 4 - Read & Screenshot
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Nope, that's normal. The fun bit comes when you try to save the file. 
Depending on how your kernel is feeling today, and how vi handles its 
files, you will get either the expected "read-only filesystem" error, 
or (bizarrely) still be able to see the chunk of filesystem that's 
supposed to be invisible. I've done this (accidentally) before now by 
keeping a shell open, cd'ed into the about-to-be-hidden directory.

I only included that as an interesting side-note, and to try and 
pursuade people to muck around a bit with their filesystems, that's 
all.

Meredydd

On Sunday 16 November 2003 03:25, you wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I read and understood (I think) Lesson 4.  I mounted a file in
> directory /domMount/ while a file (mountFile) in the same directory
> was being edited by vi.  I didn't notice anything strange.  The
> contents of the directory are hidden, as you said they would be, but
> I didn't see anything else unusual. Am I missing something?  Thanks.
>
> Dom

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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 4 - Read & Screenshot
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On Monday 17 November 2003 13:41, Julie wrote:
> This really isn't all that bizarre.

Of course it isn't - if you know what's going on. It's rather like ../
and symbolic links: perfectly sensible once you know how the kernel
handles dereferincing. Thanks for the concise explanation :)

Meredydd

From txjulie@austin.rr.com  Tue Nov 18 00:42:04 2003
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Meredydd wrote:
> Nope, that's normal. The fun bit comes when you try to save the file. 
> Depending on how your kernel is feeling today, and how vi handles its 
> files, you will get either the expected "read-only filesystem" error, 
> or (bizarrely) still be able to see the chunk of filesystem that's 
> supposed to be invisible. I've done this (accidentally) before now by 
> keeping a shell open, cd'ed into the about-to-be-hidden directory.
> 
> I only included that as an interesting side-note, and to try and 
> pursuade people to muck around a bit with their filesystems, that's 
> all.

This really isn't all that bizarre.  If the current working
directory of "vi" or your shell is in the overmounted piece
of filesystem tree, the kernel should resolve "." (the current
working directory) exactly where it was before.

What "mount" does is change how path name resolution is done.
As each piece of the path is being resolved, the mounted
filesystem table is examined to see if the current directory
has been mounted on top of.  If that's the case, instead of the
directory itself being used for the next path component, the
root of the mounted filesystem is used instead.  The kernel
doesn't keep track of your position in terms of absolute
pathnames, but rather in terms of a "current working directory".

Traversing towards the root of a filesystem works in the
opposite manner -- when ".." is encountered the table is
queried to see if the current component is the root of a
mounted filesystem, and if so, the directory which has been
mounted over is used.
-- 
Julianne Frances Haugh             Life is either a daring adventure
txjulie@austin.rr.com                  or nothing at all.
                                            -- Helen Keller

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Cambridge interview finished, new lesson up. Simple as that.

New lesson:     Lesson 5
Topic:          The joys of /etc/fstab and mount options

URL:
        http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/Lesson5.html

Buffer:         Zip. Zilch. Nada. So sue me, I've been trying to get into
university :-P

As always, please reply! Even if you've read it with no problems, please
email me to say so. If you have any questions or comments, though, please
send them to the list.

Meredydd

From olearyck@slu.edu  Thu Dec 11 00:53:12 2003
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From: "Christine Bussman" <olearyck@slu.edu>
To: meredydd@everybuddy.com, courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
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Looking at my own fstab, I have a few questions.
(my fstab is located at the end of this email for reference)

1.  What does the 'notail' option do?  (I have that set on
several Reiserfs partitions)

2.  Why does my swap entry have 'none' in the second
column?  (and for that matter 'sw' in the fourth)

3.  What is the shm entry for?  The explanation in the file
is gibberish to me.

4.  Why the difference in the first column of proc?

I know some of this may be a distro specific issue, I
should probably note that I'm using gentoo linux.  This
means I had to fill in the details in a skeleton fstab while
installing, so some of these options might not be very
good, though they do all work.

This particular lesson was especially interesting for me,
because it makes all the 'magic' things I typed in while
installing make more sense.  It will also allow me to fix
some non-optimal options and to better be able to install
later (no trial-and-error).

Christine

my /etc/fstab (with comments left in for clarity)
(sorru for the formatting, it's due to the narrowness of
email compared to my file)

# NOTE: If your BOOT partition is ReiserFS, add the
notail option to opts.
/dev/hda1               /boot           ext2
noauto,noatime         1 1
/dev/hda3               /               reiserfs
noatime,notail         0 0
/dev/hda4               /home           reiserfs
noatime,notail         0 0
/dev/hda2               none            swap            sw
0 0
/dev/cdroms/cdrom0      /mnt/cdrom      iso9660
noauto,ro,user         0 0

# NOTE: The next line is critical for boot!
none                    /proc           proc           
defaults
0 0

# glibc 2.2 and above expects tmpfs to be mounted at
/dev/shm for
# POSIX shared memory (shm_open, shm_unlink).
# (tmpfs is a dynamically expandable/shrinkable ramdisk,
and will
#  use almost no memory if not populated with files)
# Adding the following line to /etc/fstab should take care
of this:

none                    /dev/shm        tmpfs          
defaults
0 0
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
To: olearyck@slu.edu, courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
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On Wednesday 10 December 2003 13:52, Christine Bussman wrote:
> Looking at my own fstab, I have a few questions.
> (my fstab is located at the end of this email for reference)
>
> 1.  What does the 'notail' option do?  (I have that set on
> several Reiserfs partitions)
This has been answered by others - many thanks.

> 2.  Why does my swap entry have 'none' in the second
> column?  (and for that matter 'sw' in the fourth)
The entry for your swap partition can be pretty much whatever - it 
doesn't really belong in fstab, really. One tells the kernel to use 
swap space by using the "swapon" command, rather than any variation of 
"mount", and almost all the arguments are therefore ignored. The first 
column (device) is valid enough, but the second (mount point) and the 
fourth (options) are completely ignored, as are the numbers in 
positions 5 and 6. For aesthetic reasons, these are filled in with 
plausible-sounding words, which differ according to who put the file 
together, but "/dev/hda2 wibble swap flibble 0 0" would work just as 
well :^)

> 3.  What is the shm entry for?  The explanation in the file
> is gibberish to me.
As I understand it:
SHM is short for SHared Memory - a system by which two different 
processes can "see" the same memory region, and use that to communicate 
between themselves. There are a couple of types of SHM implemented by 
the glibc/Linux combo (not quite sure which bit does which), but one of 
them, called POSIX SHM, requires a "scratch space" for dummy files. You 
see, when a process sets up a region of shared memory, it somehow needs 
to pass a handle to this hunk-o-memory to the process with which said 
memory is to be shared. POSIX SHM does this with a directory path, and 
the current implementation uses dummy files in /dev/shm/. tmpfs is like 
ramfs, which I think I've already mentioned - a "nodev" filesystem 
implementation which does not store anything in persistent storage, 
instead keeping anything that is stored there in memory, and freeing it 
when the filesystem is unmounted. This is perfect for scratch files, 
and so is used by glibc's POSIX SHM implementation.

> 4.  Why the difference in the first column of proc?
Proc, as I have said a few times, is a virtual filesystem - it takes no 
cues from the hardware, or indeed from anywhere other than the kernel's 
internal state. Not only is it marked "nodev" (the device column does 
not need to be a valid path to a block device), but proc takes no 
notice of it. Once again, replace it with the word for the human organ 
of your choosing, the kernel won't care.

> I know some of this may be a distro specific issue, I
> should probably note that I'm using gentoo linux.
All of these variations come under "doesn't matter at all", with the 
exception of POSIX SHM - I don't know whether my glibc even supports 
it. It's pretty rare anyway - most if not all applications you'll see 
at the moment use SYSV shared memory (a different implementation, which 
doesn't bother with /dev/shm/).

> This particular lesson was especially interesting for me,
> because it makes all the 'magic' things I typed in while
> installing make more sense.
That's what it's all about! :^)

Meredydd

From hobbit@aloss.ukuu.org.uk  Thu Dec 11 03:04:48 2003
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:43:09 +0000
From: Telsa Gwynne <hobbit@aloss.ukuu.org.uk>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
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On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 07:52:32AM -0600 or thereabouts, Christine Bussman wrote:
> Looking at my own fstab, I have a few questions.
> (my fstab is located at the end of this email for reference)
> 
> 1.  What does the 'notail' option do?  (I have that set on
> several Reiserfs partitions)

I looked in "man fstab" for this and didn't find it. Eventually,
I found this in "man mount" by wading through it. It was in the
ReiserFS set of options.

   notail By  default,  reiserfs  stores  small  files  and  file  tails
          directly  into  its  tree.  This confuses some utilities such as
          LILO(8).  This option is used to disable packing of  files  into
          the tree.

Quite what a file tail is, I am not sure :) 

I don't know the other answers, except that I know that /proc is
a special filesystem in some way. Perhaps the explanation is in
the lesson. I haven't read it yet: I am having trouble reaching
the site. 

Other thing I remember about /proc: people used to tell me never
to use 'more /proc/somefile' or 'less /proc/somefile'. However, 
it was okay to do 'cat /proc/somefile | less' (or more). For 
reasons I have completely forgotten. I'd love to know what they
were!

Right, back to trying to reach the lesson itself :) 

Telsa

From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Thu Dec 11 06:06:08 2003
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
To: Telsa Gwynne <hobbit@aloss.ukuu.org.uk>, courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:07:18 +0000
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On Wednesday 10 December 2003 14:43, Telsa Gwynne wrote:
> Other thing I remember about /proc: people used to tell me never
> to use 'more /proc/somefile' or 'less /proc/somefile'. However,
> it was okay to do 'cat /proc/somefile | less' (or more). For
> reasons I have completely forgotten. I'd love to know what they
> were!

It's to do with the way proc works. You see, with the exception of usbfs 
(which is very similar in concept), proc is the only filesystem to 
actually generate its data on the fly. All the others have data 
*somewhere*, and *some* way of accessing it, and are therefore fairly 
rigorous about the whole thing. proc, by contrast, slaps together data 
each time a read() request comes in. This means that it's not all that 
good at maintaining the illusion of a coherent file when faced with 
multiple read()s for different bits of it, as any pager program would 
deliver.

A good explanation of how /proc works can be found in Akk's Anatomy of a 
Kernel Hack (accessible under Val's kernel hacking course), although I 
will say, not without a touch of pride, that I had in fact learnt this 
stuff the hard way before coming across that page.

Meredydd

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Thu Dec 11 09:27:04 2003
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:26:57 -0800
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On Tuesday 09 December 2003 11:07 am, Meredydd wrote:
> A good explanation of how /proc works can be found in Akk's Anatomy of 
a 
> Kernel Hack (accessible under Val's kernel hacking course), although I 
> will say, not without a touch of pride, that I had in fact learnt this 
> stuff the hard way before coming across that page.
> 

Where is this? It's not on http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/
kernel_hacking, and my personal archives go back to July 2002, and I 
don't see it there either.

thanks!

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
www.tuxcomputing.com
this message brought to you
by Libranet 2.8 and Kmail
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
To: carla@bratgrrl.com, courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
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On Wednesday 10 December 2003 22:26, Carla Schroder wrote:
> Where is this? It's not on http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/
> kernel_hacking, and my personal archives go back to July 2002, and I
> don't see it there either.

Ha. You know, I went around and around and around looking for this one - 
not indexed by google, not on the courses site...guess where I found 
it? It's up there, on the site, it's just not linked to - I'd only read 
it because I was nosing around, trying to see how other people have set 
up their course sites. Makes you wonder, doesn't it - are there any 
other gems out there, unlinked-to and forgotten? Anyway, I'm not about 
to go clobbering Val's web page for her unless explicitly asked, but 
here's a link that will get you there:

http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/kernel_hacking/Akk_hack


Meredydd
From val@nmt.edu  Thu Dec 11 10:12:00 2003
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:11:49 -0700
From: Val Henson <val@nmt.edu>
To: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
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I don't remember why I was waiting to link to it... A review from Akk?
Akkana, could you review this and let me know if it's okay to leave it
up there or you want it rewritten or whatever?  Let's get this linked
in.

-VAL

On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 10:42:37PM +0000, Meredydd wrote:
> On Wednesday 10 December 2003 22:26, Carla Schroder wrote:
> > Where is this? It's not on http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/
> > kernel_hacking, and my personal archives go back to July 2002, and I
> > don't see it there either.
> 
> Ha. You know, I went around and around and around looking for this one - 
> not indexed by google, not on the courses site...guess where I found 
> it? It's up there, on the site, it's just not linked to - I'd only read 
> it because I was nosing around, trying to see how other people have set 
> up their course sites. Makes you wonder, doesn't it - are there any 
> other gems out there, unlinked-to and forgotten? Anyway, I'm not about 
> to go clobbering Val's web page for her unless explicitly asked, but 
> here's a link that will get you there:
> 
> http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/kernel_hacking/Akk_hack
> 
> 
> Meredydd
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
From akkana@shallowsky.com  Thu Dec 11 15:01:55 2003
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From: Akkana Peck <akkana@shallowsky.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
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Meredydd writes:
> http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/kernel_hacking/Akk_hack

I've added a link from the Kernel Hacking course page (it may shift
around, if Val thinks it should be in a different place).
Hope it's helpful!

        ...Akkana
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To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
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From: James Sutherland <jas@spamcop.net>
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:43:09 +0000, Telsa Gwynne 
<hobbit@aloss.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 07:52:32AM -0600 or thereabouts, Christine 
> Bussman wrote:
>> Looking at my own fstab, I have a few questions.
>> (my fstab is located at the end of this email for reference)
>>
>> 1.  What does the 'notail' option do?  (I have that set on
>> several Reiserfs partitions)
>
> I looked in "man fstab" for this and didn't find it. Eventually,
> I found this in "man mount" by wading through it. It was in the
> ReiserFS set of options.
>
>    notail By  default,  reiserfs  stores  small  files  and  file  tails
>           directly  into  its  tree.  This confuses some utilities such 
> as
>           LILO(8).  This option is used to disable packing of  files  
> into
>           the tree.
>
> Quite what a file tail is, I am not sure :)

Almost all file systems work by dividing the disk into chunks called
clusters. Each cluster is then either "in use" or "free". This leaves
a problem: supposing you have 4096 byte (4kb) clusters, and want to
store a 5kb file? Most file systems (FAT, NTFS, ext2) just allocate
2 clusters - wasting the other 3kb of the second cluster.

ReiserFS normally tries to avoid this. Instead, it will allocate a
single cluster to the first 4kb, then put the remaining 1kb "tail"
(whatever is left over which doesn't fill an entire cluster) somewhere
else. That "somewhere else" subdivides clusters, so the other 3kb can
be used by another tail from a different file.

(This feature isn't actually new to ReiserFS; Netware's file system
has had a similar mechanism, known as 'cluster suballocation', since
Netware 4.)

Mounting with the "notail" option disables this feature, so ReiserFS
will behave the same way as other file systems: each file is just
put into one or more entire clusters, wasting more space. There are
two reasons to do this: performance (disabling this cleverness makes
the file system slightly faster, since there's less work involved,
at the expense of wasting more space), and compatibility - some tools,
such as LILO, don't yet understand how ReiserFS stores tails. This
means you need to ensure your kernel (which LILO has to access directly)
is stored conventionally, without tail repacking enabled.

For anything other than /boot - which your boot loader needs to
access, and may have a problem with tail repacking - this seems to
be a straight performance trade-off: do you want slightly faster
performance, at the expense of storage efficiency, or do you want
to wring every last byte out of the disk at the expense of making
the file system slightly slower?

> I don't know the other answers, except that I know that /proc is
> a special filesystem in some way. Perhaps the explanation is in
> the lesson. I haven't read it yet: I am having trouble reaching
> the site.

The difference is that procfs is a sort of "fake" filesystem. Unlike
the others - ext2, FAT, NTFS etc - procfs isn't a way of *storing*
files anywhere; instead, when you access what appears to be a file
under /proc you are really asking the kernel for some information.
That's why the device field is 'none': procfs doesn't use any
underlying disk, it uses the kernel itself.

> Other thing I remember about /proc: people used to tell me never
> to use 'more /proc/somefile' or 'less /proc/somefile'. However,
> it was okay to do 'cat /proc/somefile | less' (or more). For
> reasons I have completely forgotten. I'd love to know what they
> were!

Kernel bug: apparently the kernel got 'upset' with the way more and
less access those files. Tools like cat simply read the file from
beginning to end, which avoids the problem.


James.
From val@nmt.edu  Thu Dec 11 10:33:03 2003
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:33:00 -0700
From: Val Henson <val@nmt.edu>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
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On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 04:20:57PM -0000, James Sutherland wrote:
> 
> Almost all file systems work by dividing the disk into chunks called
> clusters. Each cluster is then either "in use" or "free". This leaves
> a problem: supposing you have 4096 byte (4kb) clusters, and want to
> store a 5kb file? Most file systems (FAT, NTFS, ext2) just allocate
> 2 clusters - wasting the other 3kb of the second cluster.

Just a note: What is here described as a "cluster" is more commonly
called a "block" in UNIX file system terminology.  When someone talks
about "block size," they usually mean the size of a block in a file
system.[1] Another way to approach the problem described above is to
have "frags" which are smaller than ("fragments" of) the "normal"
block size.  A common block size is 4K or 8K, a common frag size is
1K.  A third approach is to have many different block sizes, from 512
bytes up to around 128K - this is the approach ZFS, the file system I
am working on, is currently taking.

Why not have teeny-tiny block sizes?  Performance.  Writing eight 1K
blocks to disk is a lot slower than writing one 8K block.  Explaining
this further will require getting into a lot of disk drive
detail... Let me know if there is interest (and Meredydd hasn't
already covered it).

What is a group of blocks called?  Traditionally, file systems
designers make up a new, slightly different name for a group of blocks
for each file system, and each kind of block grouping has some
slightly different use.  I've heard cylinder groups, allocation
groups, and segments.  ZFs will probably have metaslabs.

-VAL

[1] "Block size" might also refer to the native block size of a disk,
which is the smallest amount that can be read or written at once
(currently 512 bytes), or the block size of the I/O subsystem - the
disk driver, the I/O scheduler, etc.  But usually it means file system
block size, the size of the most common unit of space allocated on disk.

From francisrossi@yandex.ru  Sun Dec 14 22:54:28 2003
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Hello,

I have joined this course although I'm male, but I just would love to ask a question. On my Linux (RH9) I tried recently to mount a partition where I have FreeBSD installed (sunfs file system according to a hardware detection program in Linux). I added the following line to /etc/fstab:

/dev/hdb4 /mnt/freebsd sunfs noauto,owner,users 0 0 

It didn't work. Is it impossible to mount such a partition on Linux?

All the best,

andrei

http://icefoto.narod.ru
From meredydd@everybuddy.com  Mon Dec 15 07:35:21 2003
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From: Meredydd <meredydd@everybuddy.com>
To: francisrossi@yandex.ru, courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [FS] Lesson 5
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On Sunday 14 December 2003 11:54, Francis Rossi wrote:
> I have joined this course although I'm male,
Well, you're in questionable company - so am I ;^)

> On my Linux (RH9) I tried recently to mount a
> partition where I have FreeBSD installed (sunfs file system according
> to a hardware detection program in Linux). I added the following line
> to /etc/fstab:
>
> /dev/hdb4 /mnt/freebsd sunfs noauto,owner,users 0 0
>
> It didn't work. Is it impossible to mount such a partition on Linux?
"It didn't work" isn't really very specific - a mount can fail for a 
variety of reasons. Try mounting it from the command line rather than 
trying to do it automatically with fstab. So, in this case:

root@yourbox:~# mount -t sunfs /dev/hdb4 /mnt/freebsd

...and see what errors it gives. There are four usual reasons why a 
mount can fail:

* Does this mount point exist?
        Basic, but oh so easily forgotten (also very easy to do if you 
accidentally mounted another volume over it - which is why you 
shouldn't play with /mnt if you mount your CDs at /mnt/cdrom).

* Is the block device valid?
        Usual symptoms of this one are I/O errors. Check the partition exists 
with the fdisk command.

* Does your kernel support this filesystem implementation?
        Look in /proc/filesystems - is sunfs listed there? If not, is it a 
module? Try "modprobe sunfs".

* Is this volume formatted with this filesystem implementation?
        This one shows up as "bad superblock" errors - are you sure that sunfs 
is the one you want? Try rebooting into FreeBSD and checking the mount 
table there.

I hope this rough-and-ready guide helps...

Meredydd

From francisrossi@yandex.ru  Mon Dec 15 08:18:45 2003
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>> I have joined this course although I'm male,
>Well, you're in questionable company - so am I ;^)
>

Nice! ;-)

>
>root@yourbox:~# mount -t sunfs /dev/hdb4 /mnt/freebsd

I certainly did try this as well.

>* Does this mount point exist?
>       Basic, but oh so easily forgotten (also very easy to do if you 
>accidentally mounted another volume over it - which is why you 
>shouldn't play with /mnt if you mount your CDs at /mnt/cdrom).

Yes, it did exist.
As for the rest of your observations I think they give me some good ideas.
Thanks!

Andrei

http://icefoto.narod.ru

>* Is the block device valid?
>       Usual symptoms of this one are I/O errors. Check the partition exists 
>with the fdisk command.
>
>* Does your kernel support this filesystem implementation?
>       Look in /proc/filesystems - is sunfs listed there? If not, is it a 
>module? Try "modprobe sunfs".
>
>* Is this volume formatted with this filesystem implementation?
>       This one shows up as "bad superblock" errors - are you sure that sunfs 
>is the one you want? Try rebooting into FreeBSD and checking the mount 
>table there.
>
>I hope this rough-and-ready guide helps...
>
>Meredydd
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Hi folks,

I'm shutting down the UNIX filesystems course, as there have been no new
lessons posted in a long time.

Lessons are archived at
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/filesystem/

Anyone wishing to follow on from this course should look at the running
a course guide:
http://www.linuxchix.org/content/courses/running_a_course.html

-Mary