Remove [Courses] from lesson names/post subjects

[mbox2moodle.git] / source / spineful

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Fri Mar 30 19:30:58 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
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Subject: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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What do you want?

It's a simple question, but it's one that most women can't answer. In general, 
we're not raised to aim high or to think that we can do or have anything we 
want, or that we can put our needs and wants first. We're raised to be good 
little servants, and to take care of everyone but ourselves. So your first 
homework assignment is to cast off your inhibitions, and ignore all those 
little voices that are continually telling you "no, you can't do that." Dream 
as freely and as largely as you can, and write it down. Forget about getting 
it "right", which another common Curse of Woman. Nobody but you can tell you 
what your real dreams and ambitions are. Even if you think you already know 
this stuff, give it a try- you might surprise yourself.

Forget about "what will people think." Anyone who thinks your dreams are wrong 
or stupid is a lamer and not worthy of you.

Forget about "I can't do that, it's not possible." That's not the point. The 
point is to throw away all the garbage that holds back your thoughts, and to 
be 100% self-honest.

Forget about "I don't know what my dreams and ambitions are." They're there- 
you just have to sweep away the crud they're buried under. Maybe they are 
modest, like becoming a beekeeper or having a little house with an excellent 
garden to putter in, or finding mates for all the single socks in the world. 
Maybe they're grand, like working for world peace or traveling in space. 
Maybe they're character-related, like "I want to be more spiritual and not so 
obsessed with collecting stompy boots." Whatever they are, your job is to 
figure out what they really are and to put them on paper.

If you need a jumpstart, ask yourself if you're doing the work you really want 
to do, or living where you want, or have the kind of family life you want.

If you want, share some of your dreams with the list. It might help other 
people de-rust and start some ideas flowing. But it's not required. The idea 
is to practice being 100% honest with yourself, and opening up those clogged 
dream-pipes.

Hang on to your dream list, because you're going to need it throughout the 
course.

Your other assignment is to get the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by 
Manuel J. Smith. It's an excellent book that's been around forever, and which 
contains much of the inspiration for this Course.

Another excellent book is "Mastering the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" by 
Suzette Haden Elgin. It excels at teaching how to recognize common verbal 
attacks, especially of the "dang, I think that's an attack but I'm not sure 
why," and how to not get sucked into off-topic, defensive, and pointless 
circular arguments.

Lesson 2 will be posted next Friday-ish. In the meantime, feel free to discuss 
this lesson on the list. Please preserve the subject line.


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From strangest@comcast.net  Sat Mar 31 05:07:57 2007
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From: Gloria W <strangest@comcast.net>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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> Your other assignment is to get the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by 
> Manuel J. Smith. It's an excellent book that's been around forever, and which 
> contains much of the inspiration for this Course.
>
> Another excellent book is "Mastering the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" by 
> Suzette Haden Elgin. It excels at teaching how to recognize common verbal 
> attacks, especially of the "dang, I think that's an attack but I'm not sure 
> why," and how to not get sucked into off-topic, defensive, and pointless 
> circular arguments.
>
>   
A friend of mine recommended the book "The Gift of Fear", by Gavin de 
Becker. It talks about how many women intuit danger and ignore their 
intuitive signals, because of their social training to always be nice. 
It may help.
Gloria



From dcorum@crystle.com  Sat Mar 31 16:27:18 2007
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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:19:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
From: "DeannC" <dcorum@crystle.com>
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MORE books:

Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day - Anne
Katherine

Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand and Deal with People Who
Try to Control You - Patricia Evans  (Her Book on Verbal Abuse is also a
great one)

Who's Pulling Your Strings? How to Break the Cycle of Manipulation
--Harriet Braiker

Anyway. Not to hijaack the subject, just wanted to quickly mention these.
Back to your regular programming...

Deann


>
>> Your other assignment is to get the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty=
"
>> by
>> Manuel J. Smith. It's an excellent book that's been around forever, an=
d
>> which
>> contains much of the inspiration for this Course.
>>
>> Another excellent book is "Mastering the Gentle Art of Verbal
>> Self-Defense" by
>> Suzette Haden Elgin. It excels at teaching how to recognize common
>> verbal
>> attacks, especially of the "dang, I think that's an attack but I'm not
>> sure
>> why," and how to not get sucked into off-topic, defensive, and pointle=
ss
>> circular arguments.
>>
>>
> A friend of mine recommended the book "The Gift of Fear", by Gavin de
> Becker. It talks about how many women intuit danger and ignore their
> intuitive signals, because of their social training to always be nice.
> It may help.
> Gloria
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>



From clytie@riverland.net.au  Tue Apr  3 06:25:20 2007
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From: Clytie Siddall <clytie@riverland.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:49:25 +0930
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On 31/03/2007, at 2:30 PM, Gloria W wrote:

>
>> Your other assignment is to get the book "When I Say No, I Feel  
>> Guilty" by Manuel J. Smith. It's an excellent book that's been  
>> around forever, and which contains much of the inspiration for  
>> this Course.
>>
>> Another excellent book is "Mastering the Gentle Art of Verbal Self- 
>> Defense" by Suzette Haden Elgin. It excels at teaching how to  
>> recognize common verbal attacks, especially of the "dang, I think  
>> that's an attack but I'm not sure why," and how to not get sucked  
>> into off-topic, defensive, and pointless circular arguments.
>>
>>
> A friend of mine recommended the book "The Gift of Fear", by Gavin  
> de Becker. It talks about how many women intuit danger and ignore  
> their intuitive signals, because of their social training to always  
> be nice. It may help.
> Gloria
>
Some years back, when I was in hospital for several months, for the  
first time in my life, I wasn't _being_ something for somebody. I  
wasn't being a daughter, student, wife, employee, mother, voluntary  
worker, whatever. I had nobody needing me to do things, expecting  
things of me.

It was frightening. A huge blankness, and no tasks to fill it.

Lucky I was there so long. I wasn't able to ignore that situation. I  
even had the opportunity to do an assertiveness training course,  
which changed my life. I shudder now at how narrow, how externally- 
controlled my view of life was at that stage.

I was completely unaware of the basic human rights on which the  
course was based. I remember how blown away I was when I first read  
them:
___

Basic Human Rights

1. The right to feel good about yourself

2. The right to act in ways that promote your dignity and self- 
respect as long as others' rights are not violated in the process

3. The right to be treated with respect

4. The right to say "No!" and not feel guilty

5. The right to experience and to express your feelings

6. The right to slow down and think

7. The right to change your mind

8. The right to ask for what you want

9. The right to do less than you are humanly capable of doing

10. The right to ask for information

11. The right to make mistakes
___

I doubt if any of you are as spiritually impoverished as I was then,  
but if any of these human rights don't seem completely intuitive to  
you ... believe them.

They give us permission to be ourselves. Which is what we were  
designed to be in the first place.

***

BTW, thanks for sharing about ambition. I've never been the least  
ambitious, and felt guilty because of it. It's been another thing  
other people have expected of me: vicarious success, in at least some  
cases. But it's not me.

Now I feel better about it, reading that others feel the same. I  
think ambition is perhaps a legacy of the male social structure. It's  
competitive, linear, alpha dog. I grew up in that sort of system and  
learnt to succeed in it.

It never felt right.

:)

from Clytie

Clytie Siddall -- Renmark, in the Riverland of South Australia

Apologies if this email is badly written or difficult to understand:  
due to illness, the writer has cognitive problems, has great  
difficulty typing and is severely debilitated.

Current Net communication capacity: only very occasional email.

--Apple-Mail-1--294530278--

From gayathri@ou.edu  Tue Apr  3 13:40:45 2007
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Subject: RE: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Heya Clytie:

Firstly, my sincere wishes for your soon recovery from your ailments.

But I gotta say that list wowed me.=20

How refreshing!

I might have picks some of the suggested books from the library to get =
batteries recharged :)

Warm wishes
Gayathri


-----Original Message-----
From: courses-bounces@linuxchix.org on behalf of Clytie Siddall
Sent: Tue 4/3/2007 1:19 AM
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
=20

>
Some years back, when I was in hospital for several months, for the =20
first time in my life, I wasn't _being_ something for somebody. I =20
wasn't being a daughter, student, wife, employee, mother, voluntary =20
worker, whatever. I had nobody needing me to do things, expecting =20
things of me.

It was frightening. A huge blankness, and no tasks to fill it.

Lucky I was there so long. I wasn't able to ignore that situation. I =20
even had the opportunity to do an assertiveness training course, =20
which changed my life. I shudder now at how narrow, how externally-=20
controlled my view of life was at that stage.

I was completely unaware of the basic human rights on which the =20
course was based. I remember how blown away I was when I first read =20
them:
___

Basic Human Rights

1. The right to feel good about yourself

2. The right to act in ways that promote your dignity and self-=20
respect as long as others' rights are not violated in the process

3. The right to be treated with respect

4. The right to say "No!" and not feel guilty

5. The right to experience and to express your feelings

6. The right to slow down and think

7. The right to change your mind

8. The right to ask for what you want

9. The right to do less than you are humanly capable of doing

10. The right to ask for information

11. The right to make mistakes
___

I doubt if any of you are as spiritually impoverished as I was then, =20
but if any of these human rights don't seem completely intuitive to =20
you ... believe them.

They give us permission to be ourselves. Which is what we were =20
designed to be in the first place.

***

BTW, thanks for sharing about ambition. I've never been the least =20
ambitious, and felt guilty because of it. It's been another thing =20
other people have expected of me: vicarious success, in at least some =20
cases. But it's not me.

Now I feel better about it, reading that others feel the same. I =20
think ambition is perhaps a legacy of the male social structure. It's =20
competitive, linear, alpha dog. I grew up in that sort of system and =20
learnt to succeed in it.

It never felt right.

:)

from Clytie

Clytie Siddall -- Renmark, in the Riverland of South Australia

Apologies if this email is badly written or difficult to understand: =20
due to illness, the writer has cognitive problems, has great =20
difficulty typing and is severely debilitated.

Current Net communication capacity: only very occasional email.


From amk.sorsa@gmail.com  Tue Apr  3 16:26:22 2007
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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 18:15:09 +0300
From: "Anne Sorsa" <amk.sorsa@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Hello Clytie!

I am so glad to hearing from you!

Thank you to sharing this with us :-)

Regards,
Anne

2007/4/3, Clytie Siddall <clytie@riverland.net.au>:
>
>
>
> Some years back, when I was in hospital for several months, for the
> first time in my life, I wasn't _being_ something for somebody. I
> wasn't being a daughter, student, wife, employee, mother, voluntary
> worker, whatever. I had nobody needing me to do things, expecting
> things of me.
>
> It was frightening. A huge blankness, and no tasks to fill it.
>
> Lucky I was there so long. I wasn't able to ignore that situation. I
> even had the opportunity to do an assertiveness training course,
> which changed my life. I shudder now at how narrow, how externally-
> controlled my view of life was at that stage.
>
> I was completely unaware of the basic human rights on which the
> course was based. I remember how blown away I was when I first read
> them:
> ___
>
> Basic Human Rights
>
> 1. The right to feel good about yourself
>
> 2. The right to act in ways that promote your dignity and self-
> respect as long as others' rights are not violated in the process
>
> 3. The right to be treated with respect
>
> 4. The right to say "No!" and not feel guilty
>
> 5. The right to experience and to express your feelings
>
> 6. The right to slow down and think
>
> 7. The right to change your mind
>
> 8. The right to ask for what you want
>
> 9. The right to do less than you are humanly capable of doing
>
> 10. The right to ask for information
>
> 11. The right to make mistakes
> ___
>
> I doubt if any of you are as spiritually impoverished as I was then,
> but if any of these human rights don't seem completely intuitive to
> you ... believe them.
>
> They give us permission to be ourselves. Which is what we were
> designed to be in the first place.
>
> ***
>
> BTW, thanks for sharing about ambition. I've never been the least
> ambitious, and felt guilty because of it. It's been another thing
> other people have expected of me: vicarious success, in at least some
> cases. But it's not me.
>
> Now I feel better about it, reading that others feel the same. I
> think ambition is perhaps a legacy of the male social structure. It's
> competitive, linear, alpha dog. I grew up in that sort of system and
> learnt to succeed in it.
>
> It never felt right.
>
> :)
>
> from Clytie
>
> Clytie Siddall -- Renmark, in the Riverland of South Australia
>
> Apologies if this email is badly written or difficult to understand:
> due to illness, the writer has cognitive problems, has great
> difficulty typing and is severely debilitated.
>
> Current Net communication capacity: only very occasional email.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>
>


-- 
*****************************************************
Life doesn't move as fast as we think.
The world is better if we don't know everything.
*****************************************************

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Tue Apr  3 17:34:32 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:19:08 -0700
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On Monday 02 April 2007 23:19, Clytie Siddall wrote:

> Basic Human Rights
>
> 1. The right to feel good about yourself
>
> 2. The right to act in ways that promote your dignity and self-
> respect as long as others' rights are not violated in the process
>
> 3. The right to be treated with respect
>
> 4. The right to say "No!" and not feel guilty
>
> 5. The right to experience and to express your feelings
>
> 6. The right to slow down and think
>
> 7. The right to change your mind
>
> 8. The right to ask for what you want
>
> 9. The right to do less than you are humanly capable of doing
>
> 10. The right to ask for information
>
> 11. The right to make mistakes
> ___

This is an awesome list, thank you!

>
> BTW, thanks for sharing about ambition. I've never been the least
> ambitious, and felt guilty because of it. It's been another thing
> other people have expected of me: vicarious success, in at least some
> cases. But it's not me.
>
> Now I feel better about it, reading that others feel the same. I
> think ambition is perhaps a legacy of the male social structure. It's
> competitive, linear, alpha dog. I grew up in that sort of system and
> learnt to succeed in it.
>
> It never felt right.

Now here is a useful thing to discuss. There have been several comments in=
=20
this thread that paint a rather negative picture of dreams and ambitions.=20
Here is the dictionary.com definition of ambition:

am=C2=B7bi=C2=B7tion      [am-bish-uhn]  =E2=80=93noun=20
1.  an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as power=
,=20
honor, fame, or wealth, and the willingness to strive for its attainment: T=
oo=20
much ambition caused him to be disliked by his colleagues. =20
  2.  the object, state, or result desired or sought after: The crown was h=
is=20
ambition. =20
  3.  desire for work or activity; energy: I awoke feeling tired and utterl=
y=20
lacking in ambition. =20
  =E2=80=93verb (used with object)=20
4.  to seek after earnestly; aspire to.=20

=E2=80=94Related forms
am=C2=B7bi=C2=B7tion=C2=B7less, adjective=20
am=C2=B7bi=C2=B7tion=C2=B7less=C2=B7ly, adverb=20

=E2=80=94Synonyms 1. aspiration, yearning, longing. 2. goal, aim. 3. drive,=
 force.

Only the first one has any connotations of fiendish competition and clawing=
 to=20
the top. The example for #2 could just as easily be "Painting the bathroom=
=20
today was her ambition." The example for #3 could be the opposite of the on=
e=20
given, like "Clytie leaped out of bed full of ambitious energy to pain the=
=20
bathroom." (I have been procrastinating painting my own bathroom, which is=
=20
currently an uninspiring shade of corpse-gray.)

Ambition is a good thing. It's the drive and energy that moves us forward t=
o=20
achieve the things we really really want to achieve. It's a beneficial=20
feedback loop- when I am doing things that I enjoy and that are fulfilling,=
 I=20
get energized and want to do more.=20

When people say "I have no dreams or ambitions," or "My dreams and ambition=
s=20
are modest," and that is realio trulio true, good! That is a beneficial bit=
=20
of self-knowledge, which is the point of this exercise. If it isn't true,=20
then I hope we can help each other figure that out.=20

In general, women are not raised to aspire to very much, and to bury our re=
al=20
wants and needs under thick deadening layers of stupid stuff, so when I=20
hear "oh, I don't want much" I think it's worth a closer examination. It's=
=20
not required to share it with the list, but if you're thinking along these=
=20
lines, you might take another look just to be sure.

=2D-=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook!=20
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From lynna.cekova@wright.edu  Tue Apr  3 20:46:22 2007
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> In general, women are not raised to aspire to very much, and to bury our real 
> wants and needs under thick deadening layers of stupid stuff, so when I 
> hear "oh, I don't want much" I think it's worth a closer examination. It's 
> not required to share it with the list, but if you're thinking along these 
> lines, you might take another look just to be sure.
>
>   

Or perhaps it can be assumed that a woman knows what she wants, herself. 
Telling someone that her desires are worth a "closer examination" only 
because they are not the same as what you or society considers 
appropriate is outside infliction of self-doubt to that woman, and 
building new "deadening layers of stupid stuff" (whether or not she had 
some to start with).
Some women here have been brave enough to share dreams that differ from 
the dreams of others, and I don't think they deserve to be told to 
re-examine themselves, just in case, as if something was wrong with them 
by default. And many women would think that there was *really* something 
wrong with them -- they would start to search for the "deadening layers" 
that may or may not exist, and would eventually create them, just to fit 
in. A woman telling another woman to "take another look just to be sure" 
if she doesn't conform to some standard of thought and behavior can be 
even more detrimental than the proverbial chauvinistic male who tries to 
order her around. For many people, standing up to an enemy is easier 
than standing up to someone belonging to the same group as you.


Lynna



From strangest@comcast.net  Tue Apr  3 21:39:18 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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I think both of these points are very valid, and in my past, it was a 
soul searching act to figure out where I stood at any given point in 
time. It used to be really tricky at times for me to determine if I've 
thought/acted out of other's expectations of me, or if I was truly in 
touch with how I felt at the moment. Sometimes I was sure, and sometimes 
I was not. And to make matters worse, when I was certain that I've 
acted/thought as I truly felt like doing at a given moment, I'd lament 
over whether or not it was "right" (whether I've hurt anyone's feelings, 
etc.)

Once I stopped the lamentation, the guilt part of all of this, my own 
inner voice became clear. It took much practice for me to stop feeling 
guilty for my actions, because I was raised to do so. It's almost easier 
not to act, if it's this easy to defeat yourself, and if it's so easy 
for other women to invalidate you simply by questioning your thoughts or 
actions. I've been there, I know how this feels, and I was raised by a 
female who took full advantage of my self doubt and guilt.

If you are like me, if you emotionally bruise easily, re-examining your 
thoughts, dreams, desires is a necessity. But doing it at someone else's 
prompting is the problem. Do it if and when you feel like it. Know that 
whatever conclusion you come to is absolutely, unequivocally correct 
*for you*. No one else can know this but you. And the circular 
never-ending guilt part...well, fuck that shit. It does no good 
whatsoever, so simply don't do it.

Gloria


>
>> In general, women are not raised to aspire to very much, and to bury 
>> our real wants and needs under thick deadening layers of stupid 
>> stuff, so when I hear "oh, I don't want much" I think it's worth a 
>> closer examination. It's not required to share it with the list, but 
>> if you're thinking along these lines, you might take another look 
>> just to be sure.
>>
>>   
>
> Or perhaps it can be assumed that a woman knows what she wants, 
> herself. Telling someone that her desires are worth a "closer 
> examination" only because they are not the same as what you or society 
> considers appropriate is outside infliction of self-doubt to that 
> woman, and building new "deadening layers of stupid stuff" (whether or 
> not she had some to start with).
> Some women here have been brave enough to share dreams that differ 
> from the dreams of others, and I don't think they deserve to be told 
> to re-examine themselves, just in case, as if something was wrong with 
> them by default. And many women would think that there was *really* 
> something wrong with them -- they would start to search for the 
> "deadening layers" that may or may not exist, and would eventually 
> create them, just to fit in. A woman telling another woman to "take 
> another look just to be sure" if she doesn't conform to some standard 
> of thought and behavior can be even more detrimental than the 
> proverbial chauvinistic male who tries to order her around. For many 
> people, standing up to an enemy is easier than standing up to someone 
> belonging to the same group as you.
>
>
> Lynna
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>


From carla@bratgrrl.com  Tue Apr  3 22:21:41 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:21:10 -0700
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On Tuesday 03 April 2007 13:22, Lynna Cekova wrote:
> > In general, women are not raised to aspire to very much, and to bury our
> > real wants and needs under thick deadening layers of stupid stuff, so
> > when I hear "oh, I don't want much" I think it's worth a closer
> > examination. It's not required to share it with the list, but if you're
> > thinking along these lines, you might take another look just to be sure.
>
> Or perhaps it can be assumed that a woman knows what she wants, herself.
> Telling someone that her desires are worth a "closer examination" only
> because they are not the same as what you or society considers
> appropriate is outside infliction of self-doubt to that woman, and
> building new "deadening layers of stupid stuff" (whether or not she had
> some to start with).
> Some women here have been brave enough to share dreams that differ from
> the dreams of others, and I don't think they deserve to be told to
> re-examine themselves, just in case, as if something was wrong with them
> by default. And many women would think that there was *really* something
> wrong with them -- they would start to search for the "deadening layers"
> that may or may not exist, and would eventually create them, just to fit
> in. A woman telling another woman to "take another look just to be sure"
> if she doesn't conform to some standard of thought and behavior can be
> even more detrimental than the proverbial chauvinistic male who tries to
> order her around. For many people, standing up to an enemy is easier
> than standing up to someone belonging to the same group as you.
>
>

My first flame!

I am puzzled as to why - this is a Course, and presumably people are here with the expectation of learning some things, right? And are open to ideas and discussion, and giving and receiving a bit of mutual support? If I were walking up to random people and ordering them to do anything, they would be quite justified at taking offense. But that is not the case. I'm not giving orders and no one made anyone be here.

How do you reconcile "it can be assumed that a woman knows what she wants" with being so weak that she will conform herself to what she thinks my expectations are? At any rate, I think my expectations are very clear- "know thyself" and "don't be afraid to be you." Which are not new concepts, but they can be difficult to hang onto under the pressures of everyday life, which is why I suggest that taking the time to sort things out is a valuable and helpful thing to do. If you don't need to, fine, you can skip this part. 

Everyone is different, and I trust that the participants here are wise enough to recognize what will be useful to them, and which bits they don't need. You are 100% correct that it is brave to share such personal information, and everyone who has shared has my thanks and appreciation. Anyone who is not publicly sharing also has my thanks and appreciation, for doing what is right for their own needs.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From lynna.cekova@wright.edu  Wed Apr  4 01:07:58 2007
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From: Lynna Cekova <lynna.cekova@wright.edu>
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Carla Schroder wrote:
> On Tuesday 03 April 2007 13:22, Lynna Cekova wrote:
>   
>>> In general, women are not raised to aspire to very much, and to bury our
>>> real wants and needs under thick deadening layers of stupid stuff, so
>>> when I hear "oh, I don't want much" I think it's worth a closer
>>> examination. It's not required to share it with the list, but if you're
>>> thinking along these lines, you might take another look just to be sure.
>>>       
>> Or perhaps it can be assumed that a woman knows what she wants, herself.
>> Telling someone that her desires are worth a "closer examination" only
>> because they are not the same as what you or society considers
>> appropriate is outside infliction of self-doubt to that woman, and
>> building new "deadening layers of stupid stuff" (whether or not she had
>> some to start with).
>> Some women here have been brave enough to share dreams that differ from
>> the dreams of others, and I don't think they deserve to be told to
>> re-examine themselves, just in case, as if something was wrong with them
>> by default. And many women would think that there was *really* something
>> wrong with them -- they would start to search for the "deadening layers"
>> that may or may not exist, and would eventually create them, just to fit
>> in. A woman telling another woman to "take another look just to be sure"
>> if she doesn't conform to some standard of thought and behavior can be
>> even more detrimental than the proverbial chauvinistic male who tries to
>> order her around. For many people, standing up to an enemy is easier
>> than standing up to someone belonging to the same group as you.
>>
>>
>>     
>
> My first flame!
>
> I am puzzled as to why - this is a Course, and presumably people are here with the expectation of learning some things, right? And are open to ideas and discussion, and giving and receiving a bit of mutual support? If I were walking up to random people and ordering them to do anything, they would be quite justified at taking offense. But that is not the case. I'm not giving orders and no one made anyone be here.
>
> How do you reconcile "it can be assumed that a woman knows what she wants" with being so weak that she will conform herself to what she thinks my expectations are? At any rate, I think my expectations are very clear- "know thyself" and "don't be afraid to be you." Which are not new concepts, but they can be difficult to hang onto under the pressures of everyday life, which is why I suggest that taking the time to sort things out is a valuable and helpful thing to do. If you don't need to, fine, you can skip this part. 
>
> Everyone is different, and I trust that the participants here are wise enough to recognize what will be useful to them, and which bits they don't need. You are 100% correct that it is brave to share such personal information, and everyone who has shared has my thanks and appreciation. Anyone who is not publicly sharing also has my thanks and appreciation, for doing what is right for their own needs.
>
>   
I didn't aim to flame anyone. I aimed to point the following: once a 
person has shared her dreams with others, receiving a reply in the 
spirit of "but are you really really sure" is not doing her good. 
People, and especially women, are prone to self-doubt. Someone might 
know herself and her dreams quite well and still doubt herself when 
prompted by a person she trusts. Women who have trampled their true 
selves beneath rules imposed by others should be encouraged to dig them 
out. However, women whose true selves are already dug out (or were never 
buried in the first place) should not be urged to reevaluate themselves 
just because their true selves do not match some outside criteria.
Or, in fewer words, I meant that  prompts and advice like "you might 
take another look just to be sure" might harm rather than help a woman, 
even when help is what is initially intended.

From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Tue Apr  3 21:41:26 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 10:19:08AM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> 1.  an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as power, 
> honor, fame, or wealth, and the willingness to strive for its attainment: Too 
> much ambition caused him to be disliked by his colleagues.  

Well, that *is* the kind of "ambition" I was talking about, and I don't
want any part of it.

What are my really, truly, heart's desires?
1) That my two best friends become Christians.  Nothing much I can do
about that except pray.
2) To write (fan fiction) stories that bring people closer to God, by
showing examples of love that isn't erotic, but brotherly and
self-sacrificing.  Stories with "good dreams", so to speak.  Stories of
redemption.
3) To create beauty, and elegant things-that-work (which includes
programs)

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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> On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 10:19:08AM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
>> 1.  an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as
>> power,
>> honor, fame, or wealth, and the willingness to strive for its
>> attainment: Too
>> much ambition caused him to be disliked by his colleagues.
>
> Well, that *is* the kind of "ambition" I was talking about, and I don't
> want any part of it.

The purpose of this post is not to put down your dream or beat up on
Christians.  What I'm going to say could be said if you wanted your two
best friends to become vegetarians, for instance.

This is where I think the baggage of language becomes important and why I
think Carla did a service talking about the various meanings of ambition.

In my book, you're exhibiting a very strong ambition even in the #1 sense=
.
 You feel you have the Truth, and other people don't, and you want to
change them to be more like you.  You're hoping to change them in some
profound way through your actions (prayer or writing).  You're seeking th=
e
most basic power that exists  -- power over other people.  And you want
power over something very intimate and personal to them.

As long as respectful boundaries are maintained, there's nothing wrong
with that.  It describes everybody from Mother Theresa to every school
teacher.

You also want to express your creativity, write and "create beauty".=20
That's  seeking honor/distinction/honor/fame.  You have to have some of
that or nobody will read your stories.  Stories which stay in a desk
drawer and are never read don't change anybody.

And speaking with no negative connotations whatever, "I will strive to
create beauty" is very ambitious.  You have to have enough ego to say tha=
t
you *can* create beauty, and enough gumption to strive for your goal.=20
That's ambition.

You may not be seeking money, you may not be acting out your ambition in
the corporate world, but IMO you are ambitious.  And there's nothing wron=
g
with that.  I'm an artist.  I'm ambitious too.

IMO ambition has gotten a very bad rap here, along with being labelled a
"guy" thing which can do some real damage.  The oldest trick in the MCP
book is warping the language so that women don't get to embrace fully
everything that is human.  Men don't have to compete with women if they'l=
l
buy into that mindset because they'll take care of it for them by cutting
themselves off at the knees (and each other -- women can be fierce
enforcers of faux feminity).  "Mother may I" is an exhausting game, and
it's one that men don't have to spend time on because they are the
default.  They already give themselves rights to everything human.  Women
don't.

Ambition is nothing more than saying "I want x, I can get it, I'm going
for it".  The fact that some people consider ambition "masculine", or som=
e
people have ignoble ambitions, is not our concern.

A dream without ambition (the willingness to strive for its attainment) i=
s
a dream that never comes to fruition.  It's being 60 years old and tellin=
g
your grandkids for the umpteenth time that you really wanted to be an
actress, but maybe you don't tell them that you never took an acting
lesson, tried out for a part, or relocated to an area with better
opportunities.  It's Cinderella sitting around and waiting for the fairy
godmother to come along and sprinkle fairy dust to make things happen.=20
It's the same line of baloney that has been used to keep women passive fo=
r
millenia.

Just my $0.02.  Nobody has to agree, and I'm fine with that.

> What are my really, truly, heart's desires?
> 1) That my two best friends become Christians.  Nothing much I can do
> about that except pray.
> 2) To write (fan fiction) stories that bring people closer to God, by
> showing examples of love that isn't erotic, but brotherly and
> self-sacrificing.  Stories with "good dreams", so to speak.  Stories of
> redemption.
> 3) To create beauty, and elegant things-that-work (which includes
> programs)
>
> Kathryn Andersen
> --
>  _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen        <http://www.katspace.com>
> /      \    |
> \_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list
> <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
>       v     |
> ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
> Maranatha!  | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>


From horatio@computer.org  Wed Apr  4 22:22:32 2007
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From: Aguido Horatio Davis <horatio@computer.org>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 02:02:49PM -0400, Sheryl wrote:
>=20
> Men don't have to compete with women if they'll buy into that mindset
> because they'll take care of it for them by cutting themselves off at
> the knees (and each other -- women can be fierce enforcers of faux
> feminity).  "Mother may I" is an exhausting game, and it's one that
> men don't have to spend time on because they are the default.  They
> already give themselves rights to everything human.  Women don't.
>=20

There are areas of being human that are incompatible with some of the
traditional views of being an occidental male. Some of the fiercest
enforcers of this kind of limit are other men. =20

It's not disagreement, exactly, but you may want to reconsider your
assumption that men have no such limits inside their heads, and that
they don't compromise their lives to honour them.  It's not just
communities of gender that have such cultural baggage, but that's
another thread, I suspect..

Are my dreams welcome?

Cheers,

Horatio

--Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q--

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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Horatio wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 02:02:49PM -0400, Sheryl wrote:
>
> There are areas of being human that are incompatible with some of the
traditional views of being an occidental male. Some of the fiercest
enforcers of this kind of limit are other men.

I agree completely, and it occurred to me after I sent the email that I
was too general.  For that I apologize.

> It's not disagreement, exactly, but you may want to reconsider your
assumption that men have no such limits inside their heads, and that
they don't compromise their lives to honour them.  It's not just
communities of gender that have such cultural baggage, but that's
another thread, I suspect..

It's not really my assumption.  It was carelessness in choice of words.  =
I
work in a male environment and we've talked about these limits many times=
.

But for the most part, the man's baggage gives him more permission to
strive for things and the woman's baggage discourages her from striving
for things.  It's the "cinderalla" effect I was talking about -- sit
around being sweet and pretty until someone steps in and makes you a
princess.

Men didn't have to deal with that.  They had to deal with other stuff.=20
Protector stuff, breadwinner stuff.  It's not easier, just wasn't what we
were talking about at the time.

>
> Are my dreams welcome?

As far as I'm concerned, absolutely.  And your ambitions too.  :-)

Sheryl

>
> Cheers,
>
> Horatio
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>




From carla@bratgrrl.com  Thu Apr  5 00:45:37 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Wednesday 04 April 2007 15:02, Aguido Horatio Davis wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 02:02:49PM -0400, Sheryl wrote:
> > Men don't have to compete with women if they'll buy into that mindset
> > because they'll take care of it for them by cutting themselves off at
> > the knees (and each other -- women can be fierce enforcers of faux
> > feminity).  "Mother may I" is an exhausting game, and it's one that
> > men don't have to spend time on because they are the default.  They
> > already give themselves rights to everything human.  Women don't.
>
> There are areas of being human that are incompatible with some of the
> traditional views of being an occidental male. Some of the fiercest
> enforcers of this kind of limit are other men.
>
> It's not disagreement, exactly, but you may want to reconsider your
> assumption that men have no such limits inside their heads, and that
> they don't compromise their lives to honour them.  It's not just
> communities of gender that have such cultural baggage, but that's
> another thread, I suspect..

In keeping with the mission of Linuxchix, which is "LinuxChix is a community 
for women who like Linux, and for women and men who want to support women in 
computing," I'm not going to be discussing issues specific to men. The course 
material is applicable to just about everyone (the folks who already lead 
perfect lives probably won't find much of value here, but we don't care about 
them <g>), but my overall slant is definitely towards women.

Discussions aren't restricted in any way; please share freely and be welcome.

>
> Are my dreams welcome?

Yes.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Thu Apr  5 09:41:35 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
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On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 02:02:49PM -0400, Sheryl wrote:
> You also want to express your creativity, write and "create beauty". 
> That's  seeking honor/distinction/honor/fame.  You have to have some of
> that or nobody will read your stories.  Stories which stay in a desk
> drawer and are never read don't change anybody.

True, but my aims in this direction are still modest, and don't fit in
to what society expects of me in this area.  I'm not "ambitious" because
I'm not conforming to the "correct" kind of ambition that a writer is
supposed to have: getting published by a publisher.  I've lost count of
the times when people have said to me, meaning to be encouraging but
actually being the opposite: "You can write well, you should write
*real* fiction and get published."  That's like saying to an actor "you
can act well, you should stop wasting your time doing theatre, and get
into movies."

I picked this analogy because, for an actor, the rewards of theatre are
not the fame or the money, because the fame and the money in theatre are
modest, and miniscule compared to what could be done in movies.
The rewards of doing theatre are a closeness to the audience and
immediate feedback on your performance.  It's the same kind of thing
that attracts me to putting fiction on the web -- my audience may not be
very large, but it's much closer.

For me, trying to get published is not worth the cost.  But, somehow,
the idea of having writing as a *hobby* isn't considered valid by
society.  That's very discouraging.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Fri Apr  6 20:54:36 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
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Lesson 2: When Nice = Rude

We're off to a great start! Thank you everyone for your thoughtful, inspiring 
posts.

If you don't have a copy of "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" I recommend that 
you find one. We have a number of good book recommendations; this is still my 
#1 choice.

Clytie Siddall posted a "Basic Human Rights" list, which I copied below. 
Manuel Smith, the author of "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty," includes a 
similar list, The Bill of Assertive Human Rights. This is number one:

==Our Prime Assertive Human Right==
Assertive Right 1: You have the right to judge your own behavior, thoughts, 
and emotions, and to take responsibility for their initiation and 
consequences upon yourself.

I'm willing to wager that most of us were raised completely contrary to this. 
I know I spent a good portion of my life fighting with this nebulous 
disapproving judge in my head who didn't approve of much of anything I did. I 
had a hard time doing anything on my own authority; I always needed 
permission and was forever striving for what I thought I should do, rather 
than what I wanted to do. This leads to bad consequences, both small and 
tragic. Here is a small example:

Deciding where to go for dinner
--------------------------------------------
"Where do you want to go?"
"I don't know, where do you want to go?"
"Anywhere you want is fine with me."
"Well, I don't really care, so let's go where you want."
"OK, how about.... Italian."
"Hmmm, Italian...I don't know...."
"Oh, you don't want Italian. So where do you want to go? I really don't care."

And on and on until anyone present who is capable of making such a simple 
decision is at the breaking point and ready to scream. Then later this 
happens:

[grumbling to a friend]
"I really wanted Italian, but we had burgers instead. Inconsiderate louts."

So why was it so hard to say "I want to go to the Italian restaurant for 
dinner- who's coming with me?"

How Niceness Escalates Into Rudeness
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A friend of mine plays in an old time country-and-western band. She was 
bringing her electric guitar to performances. It's a lovely guitar, and she 
had it adjusted to sound like a nice amplified acoustic guitar, in keeping 
with the type of music they were playing. The whole band was using a sound 
system; she was smart to keep control of her own amplification, which is a 
story for another day. For whatever reason another band member thought this 
was a bad thing, and that Friend should play an acoustic guitar. Sounds like 
a simple, straightforward request, right?

Instead this happened right before a performance:

Singer: "Do you wear your heart on your sleeve?"
Friend: "Huh, what do you mean?" (thinking, oh no, what have I done wrong?)
Singer: "I need to ask you something, and it's really no big deal, but I 
haven't wanted to bother you with it, but it's been kind of bothering me and 
I don't want to hurt your feelings but [yak yak excuse ramble]........"

While Singer is circling perilously closer to making an actual point, Friend 
is winding up into a serious state of peeve and worry, racking her conscience 
and wondering what major crime she has committed, and how could she do it 
unknowingly. Finally Singer brings up the issue of the guitar, fortunately 
before Friend falls into a nervous collapse or punches Singer out, whichever 
happens first. The result was Friend called me and asked me to bring her 
acoustic guitar and other gear, please hurry now. So I did. Because I trust 
her judgment and decisions. Though I did grumble and say mean things about 
Singer.

Nice? Or Phony?
----------------------
Don't we all know people like that? Or do it ourselves? They're so worried 
about hurting other people's feelings, and not being "nice," and of somehow 
doing a Wrong Thing, and maybe we won't like them, or even be mad at them, 
that they end up being phony and rude, and boring us to death with excuses 
and justifications. Singer could have talked this over any time, with no 
better reason that "because I think it would look better." Waiting until 
minutes before show time, and treating it like an international incident 
instead of a simple discussion between friends is rude and not nice.

How often do we hurt someone because we're trying to be "nice"?

"Yes, that color looks fine on you." (ha! no way! send in the clowns!)

"I don't mind, really." (oh yes I do, and I'm going to be resentful forever 
and ever.)

"Eh, it's not worth hassling for a refund." (I won't tell you I'm unhappy, but 
I will badmouth you to everyone I know.)

"Aw, she's not so bad, she just has some stuff going on in her life." (I'm 
doing her work and mine, she is undependable, incompetent, and obnoxious, and 
everyone in the office is suffering because of one bad employee, but I'm too 
chicken to let her go.)

"He's really a good man, he didn't mean it, you have to understand." (If I 
admit he's a no-good butthead, then I'll have to make some uncomfortable 
decisions.)

The last two scenarios represent the worst consequences of being "nice", 
because other people are affected adversely, and the "nice" person is 
standing up for the wrong people.

Homework
----------------
If you find yourself doing these sorts of things, think about why.

What does it really mean to be nice?

Share similar stories with the list. They don't have to involve you, but it 
would be fun and helpful to have some different scenarios to discuss.

A wonderful and fun way to practice different behaviors and develop new verbal 
skills is to follow the dialogue scenarios in "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" 
with a friend, just like rehearsing a play.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Basic Human Rights
1. The right to feel good about yourself

2. The right to act in ways that promote your dignity and self- 
respect as long as others' rights are not violated in the process

3. The right to be treated with respect

4. The right to say "No!" and not feel guilty

5. The right to experience and to express your feelings

6. The right to slow down and think

7. The right to change your mind

8. The right to ask for what you want

9. The right to do less than you are humanly capable of doing

10. The right to ask for information

11. The right to make mistakes

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From gayathri.swa@gmail.com  Sun Apr  8 17:32:34 2007
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Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:25:35 -0500
From: "Gayathri Swaminathan" <gayathri.swa@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
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Thank you!! This course has indeed been refreshing many ways.

It has helped me reclaim some awareness ( by making the dreams list ) and
have listened to many inspiring stories so far.

Had to think a lot to pick of those particular juicy instances, when I had
found "Nice = Rude" in my life :)

I agree completely with Carla on this,

"I always needed permission and was forever striving for what I thought I
should do, rather than what I wanted to do."

I can relate to this well coming from the traditional southern Indian
background. In many ways, children ( both male/female) are told in those
parts that they should take to a professional degree ( Doctor, Engineer,
Lawyer etc., ) else you are considered loser some kind. You work your butt
off through high school acing your Math/Science classes and then there is
large general exam ( similar to the SATs, entrance exams ) to get into
undergraduate degrees. The short and length of it, you study even harder and
choose your major. But was this what you "wanted" to do?! or you "needed" to
do.

I really wanted to be a doctor but after a lengthy discourse with my dad
decided to do Computer Science instead. In many ways, I have not only
developed admiration for CS but am also glad how medicine would not have
been appropriate for me ( Being so empathetic and all..I would not have been
able to treat it as a profession/job). Very few south Indian gals are lucky
enough to have a dad like mine who will allow such conversations.

Most the gals I went undergraduate were little shoved into it with the
dreams of their parents. But what if she wanted to be an artist, a writer
something else?! And the rest of it is decided for her as well. See, after
you graduate with your professional degree, you are married off to some
Mr.Nice guy to start your family life.

This is not all bad as it sounds. The parents were earnestly thinking
getting their daughters well-educated and married to a person with good
qualifications should bring her happiness life long. But was that her "inner
bliss", quoting Joseph Campbell again :)

The other thing, I have time after time been faced with is, when in
profession ( mine IT ) where I interact with a fair amount of male
colleagues, why do I always get the feeling "I am told what to do". I can
stand on the tallest hill, wave my hands, put big signs and write reviews
day long, year long of why certain things cannot be implemented the way they
propose but, if I did that "I am not being nice!". I strive along staying
stubborn on this stand and hardly let my spirit get hurt. But for how long?!


Yep, never been able to get into that good-ol-boy gang much ( Dont want to
either..coz am proud being a gal ) but how much am I hurting myself by
refusing this proposition. career wise..

Gayathri

-----Original Message-----
> From: courses-bounces@linuxchix.org on behalf of Carla Schroder
> Sent: Fri 4/6/2007 3:54 PM
> To: courses@linuxchix.org
> Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
>
> Lesson 2: When Nice = Rude
>
> We're off to a great start! Thank you everyone for your thoughtful,
> inspiring
> posts.
>
> If you don't have a copy of "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" I recommend
> that
> you find one. We have a number of good book recommendations; this is still
> my
> #1 choice.
>
> Clytie Siddall posted a "Basic Human Rights" list, which I copied below.
> Manuel Smith, the author of "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty," includes a
> similar list, The Bill of Assertive Human Rights. This is number one:
>
> ==Our Prime Assertive Human Right==
> Assertive Right 1: You have the right to judge your own behavior,
> thoughts,
> and emotions, and to take responsibility for their initiation and
> consequences upon yourself.
>
> I'm willing to wager that most of us were raised completely contrary to
> this.
> I know I spent a good portion of my life fighting with this nebulous
> disapproving judge in my head who didn't approve of much of anything I
> did. I
> had a hard time doing anything on my own authority; I always needed
> permission and was forever striving for what I thought I should do, rather
> than what I wanted to do. This leads to bad consequences, both small and
> tragic

From linda@meridian-ds.com  Mon Apr  9 13:37:20 2007
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Not exactly what Carla asked for, but seems to be somewhat on-topic.

We have multiple Internet connections and run BGP.  Our connection from 
one of the *huge* providers had been flaky for over a week.

One day last week, after working 9 hours at the office and walking out 
to find a flat tire on my car, I wound up on the phone with their tech 
support from home, logged into the office looking at the router.

We have a somewhat unusual type of circuit.  We don't have a T1 
controller defined on our Cisco.  I know this, and I know how to get the 
information on the type of circuit we have.  Perhaps because I told the 
guy on the other end of the line I wasn't a router guru but could do 
whatever they needed to walk me through, he refused to listen.

He asked me about six times to get the results of a "show controllers 
T1".  I told him about six times there was no output from that command 
because we have a different circuit type, but I could give him the info 
from the show on the interface we have.  About the seventh time he asked 
I finally lost my temper.  I raised my voice at him, told him maybe I 
needed another tech, that he needed to actually listen to what I said, 
we don't have a freaking T1 controller.

Then I felt guilty.  It felt like I had been rude, when all I did was 
insist he listen to me.  That's ridiculous.  He's the one who hadn't 
bothered to read the information about our account.  He's the one who 
hadn't listened to what I had been saying for *over an hour* on the phone.

However, the next morning when I got to the office and could send them 
some info they had asked for the night before (and my little tech weenie 
sounded really offended when, after he said 4 times in less than two 
minutes I needed to send the info in, and the fifth time I told him I'd 
heard him the last four times he said it) I made it a point to tell them 
he had been dismissive, condescending and insulting.  I didn't actually 
talk to them when they called back - I had a meeting after work and was 
gone when they finally called - but I know they read the comment because 
the senior level guy tried to make excuses for him.  I don't think my 
boss let them off the hook, but hopefully they'll at least think about 
how they treat people.

I've tried very hard not to attribute the attitude to the fact that I'm 
a woman, but I wonder.  I've also stopped feeling guilty about it, but I 
still get angry enough I shake when I think about it.

Anyone else run into something similar?

LP

From cmoliver@gmail.com  Mon Apr  9 14:20:12 2007
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Subject: RE: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
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-----Original Message-----

I've tried very hard not to attribute the attitude to the fact that I'm=20
a woman, but I wonder.  I've also stopped feeling guilty about it, but I =

still get angry enough I shake when I think about it.

Anyone else run into something similar?

LP
----------------------------


Absolutely.=20

Part of my job is to maintain a Cisco VOIP network.  All of my =
experience in doing this has been learned on the job without any sort of =
mentorship or training.  One day, I had to set up something special on =
the voice gateway that I didn't know how to do.  I read what Cisco =
documentation I could find about it but couldn't make heads or tails of =
it.  (Those of you who have read Cisco documentation about a subject =
you're not intimately familiar with before reading the documentation =
will no doubt sympathize with this.)

Given that it had to be done and I was making no headway fast, I opened =
up a support case with Cisco.  We pay for the support contract to be =
able to do this sort of thing. =20

I said, "I don't have a ton of experience with VOIP.  Here's what I'm =
trying to do, here's what I've gleaned needs to be done from the =
documentation.  Here's what I've tried and here's where I'm failing to =
understand something.  Can you please help with the configuration?"

I then got a lecture about how I really didn't belong in the position I =
was in, I really couldn't just maintain a system like this, I was =
completely out of my league, incompetent, needed training, etc., etc.

I actually nearly burst into tears on the phone.  It was so completely =
out of line with what I had been expecting.  It was like walking into an =
ambush when all I did was ask for the support that we pay for.  As we =
talked, the fellow I was talking to eventually figured out that I did =
understand what an IP address was and understood networking.  He =
apologized, as he had presumed that I was coming from a pure PBX =
background.  He thought he was doing me a favor by trying to make me =
understand how impossible it was that I could possibly maintain this =
network.  (And yet, it has been working quite reliably for three years =
now under my eye!)

Regardless, I refused to call Cisco for any kind of support for months =
after that, because the last thing I needed in addition to having a =
problem was to be lectured to about how incompetent I am.  The worst =
part is that I let him shake me, actually let myself believe him.

That's not very spineful, is it?


From carla@bratgrrl.com  Mon Apr  9 17:45:18 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:44:59 -0700
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Great stories, thank you everyone! I won't clog the list by responding to=20
every one, even though they're all fuel for a lot of great discussion, so=20
I'll start here:

On Monday 09 April 2007 07:13, Charlotte Oliver wrote:
> Given that it had to be done and I was making no headway fast, I opened up
> a support case with Cisco. =C2=A0We pay for the support contract to be ab=
le to
> do this sort of thing. =C2=A0
>
> I said, "I don't have a ton of experience with VOIP. =C2=A0Here's what I'm
> trying to do, here's what I've gleaned needs to be done from the
> documentation. =C2=A0Here's what I've tried and here's where I'm failing =
to
> understand something. =C2=A0Can you please help with the configuration?"
>
> I then got a lecture about how I really didn't belong in the position I w=
as
> in, I really couldn't just maintain a system like this, I was completely
> out of my league, incompetent, needed training, etc., etc.
>
> I actually nearly burst into tears on the phone. =C2=A0It was so complete=
ly out
> of line with what I had been expecting. =C2=A0It was like walking into an=
 ambush
> when all I did was ask for the support that we pay for. =C2=A0As we talke=
d, the
> fellow I was talking to eventually figured out that I did understand what
> an IP address was and understood networking. =C2=A0He apologized, as he h=
ad
> presumed that I was coming from a pure PBX background. =C2=A0He thought h=
e was
> doing me a favor by trying to make me understand how impossible it was th=
at
> I could possibly maintain this network. =C2=A0(And yet, it has been worki=
ng
> quite reliably for three years now under my eye!)
>
> Regardless, I refused to call Cisco for any kind of support for months
> after that, because the last thing I needed in addition to having a probl=
em
> was to be lectured to about how incompetent I am. =C2=A0The worst part is=
 that I
> let him shake me, actually let myself believe him.

So who has some ideas how to handle situations like this? What do you say t=
o=20
an idiot tech support droid who would rather criticize and belittle you tha=
n=20
do his job? Wouldn't you consider this a breach of contract, in addition to=
=20
being personally insulting and generally a loathesome human being?

My first impulse is to not even bother with Mr. Dork, but insist on an=20
escalation. Then when your situation is resolved, file a formal complaint=20
with Mr Dork's boss. Does this sound like an effective tactic?

=2D-=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook!=20
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From listpig@earthlink.net  Mon Apr  9 17:57:43 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
From: Listpig <listpig@earthlink.net>
To: <courses@linuxchix.org>, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
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"Sir, is there someone else there that I could speak to who is interested in
helping solve the problem, rather than critiquing my abilities?"

That's kind of what comes to my mind, although I can see that it would
likely head for a debate.  Once it started doing so, though, I'd think you'd
want to refuse to argue and simply dig your heels in and request escalation.

What do you think?

--pig


On 4/9/07 12:44, "Carla Schroder" <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:

> My first impulse is to not even bother with Mr. Dork, but insist on an
> escalation. Then when your situation is resolved, file a formal complaint
> with Mr Dork's boss. Does this sound like an effective tactic?



From carla@bratgrrl.com  Wed Apr 11 17:24:59 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:24:35 -0700
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On Monday 09 April 2007 10:57, Listpig wrote:
> "Sir, is there someone else there that I could speak to who is interested
> in helping solve the problem, rather than critiquing my abilities?"
>
> That's kind of what comes to my mind, although I can see that it would
> likely head for a debate. =A0Once it started doing so, though, I'd think
> you'd want to refuse to argue and simply dig your heels in and request
> escalation.
>
> What do you think?

You got it!

"When I Say No I Feel Guilty" goes extensively into tactics to use in these=
=20
situations. They have cool names like Fogging and Broken Record. In a=20
nutshell, Fogging is benignly not-disputing with whatever guff they throw a=
t=20
you- "I'm sure you feel that way" and Broken Record is repeating what you=20
want: "I want to speak to your supervisor right now." The trick is to not g=
et=20
sucked into futile arguments or distracted by anything that will derail you=
=20
from what you want, and sticking to your guns until you get it.

This goes along with taking responsibility for your own needs and wants, an=
d=20
not needing permission from someone else. It doesn't matter what their=20
policies are, or what rules they think they have to follow. You are the=20
customer. You don't need their approval to tell them what you want.

In "When I Say No I Feel Guilty" he tells the tale of a young man who bough=
t a=20
used car. It immediately developed problems, so he took it back for a refun=
d.=20
He escalated from the salesman to the sales manager to the owner. All along=
=20
the way they first stonewalled, then tried to shift blame, then offered=20
repairs, then offered him another vehicle. He stuck it out until he got a=20
full refund. He didn't make excuses like "I should have known better" or "I=
=20
should have had a mechanic check it out" or "oh, it was just a beater anywa=
y,=20
what did I expect." He paid good money and expected satisfaction.

See why I keep nagging you to get this book? :)

=2D-=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook!=20
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From kmactane@gothpunk.com  Wed Apr 11 18:03:17 2007
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Carla Schroder wrote:
> 
> ... and Broken Record is repeating what you 
> want: "I want to speak to your supervisor right now." The trick is to not get 
> sucked into futile arguments or distracted by anything that will derail you 
> from what you want, and sticking to your guns until you get it.

I recall the guy who was trying to cancel his AOL account in that rather 
widely-publicized incident a while back: "Cancel the account. *Cancel* 
the *account*. CANCEL the ACCOUNT."

                                                 --Kai MacTane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"And you can swallow, or you can spit
  You can throw it up, or choke on it
  And you can dream, so dream out loud
  You know that your time is coming 'round"
                                                 --U2,
                                                  "Acrobat"


From raven@oneeyedcrow.net  Mon Apr  9 18:34:03 2007
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From: Raven Alder <raven@oneeyedcrow.net>
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Hiya --

* Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> [2007-04-09 10:44:59 -0700]:
> On Monday 09 April 2007 07:13, Charlotte Oliver wrote:
> > I then got a lecture about how I really didn't belong in the position I=
 was
> > in, I really couldn't just maintain a system like this, I was completely
> > out of my league, incompetent, needed training, etc., etc.

        "How dare you.  Give me your manager, right now."

        It sounds to me like you gave him a great problem report -- I've
been the engineer on the other end of the phone, and the background and
information that you provided him is exactly the sort of thing that's
most helpful in solving the problem.  It was thoroughly unprofessional
of him to a) not work on fixing your problem as he is paid to do, and b)
act in a hostile and unprofessional manner in the process.

> > Regardless, I refused to call Cisco for any kind of support for months
> > after that, because the last thing I needed in addition to having a pro=
blem
> > was to be lectured to about how incompetent I am. =A0The worst part is =
that I
> > let him shake me, actually let myself believe him.

        Don't blame yourself for that!  Anyone can be shaken when
unexpectedly attacked; it's a perfectly normal reaction.  I mean, look
at the loveliness I've had on Full Disclosure lately.  It's all one guy
being a harassing jerk with a million sock puppet accounts.  I know
security is hostile and that this guy has it in for me, but when I saw
the first vicious attempt at spin control
(http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2007/Apr/0305.html) I was so angry I
was shaking.  I did give him what for (I found it most expedient to
answer as if I didn't know it was another sock puppet of my harasser --
http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2007/Apr/0306.html), but I was still
terribly thrown that I even had to do that.

        So, my point is -- it's not you that is the problem.  It's tough
to go back into situations where someone's been awful to you, but you
can do it.  (I've found that having other folks say nice sympathetic
supportive things to me helps a lot.  Going forth and successfully doing
whatever it was helps a lot too.)

> So who has some ideas how to handle situations like this? What do you say=
 to=20
> an idiot tech support droid who would rather criticize and belittle you t=
han=20
> do his job? Wouldn't you consider this a breach of contract, in addition =
to=20
> being personally insulting and generally a loathesome human being?

        Things that have worked for me:

If you're not too thrown, call them on it immediately.  "ExCUSE me?" is
the mild version, but will let them know that you're offended and that
they'd better backpedal quickly.

If you have some, mention relevant expertise.  I've often credited
someone with more knowledge than they had because they seemed so
assured, only to later find out that I did actually know more than them.
(I know *I* wouldn't be that arrogant unless I knew what I was talking
about, so clearly THEY must know what they're talking about since
they're so assured... wait.  No.)  So, it goes against the grain, but
opening with "I've never really worked with this before", even if true,
makes some people assume that one is an idiot rather than a newcomer to
a particular subset of the field.

Don't be afraid to demand a manager or an escalation, even if it's well
after it happened.  You can call back in later and find the tech's
manager and formally complain.  I have done this with Cisco, and it was
taken seriously.  The guy called me, apologized, and fixed my problem.

> My first impulse is to not even bother with Mr. Dork, but insist on an=20
> escalation. Then when your situation is resolved, file a formal complaint=
=20
> with Mr Dork's boss. Does this sound like an effective tactic?

        It's pretty closely related to what I do, and has worked pretty
well for me.  (I will give them a chance to apologize, backpedal, and
fix, but if they're still going to be a jerk after one shot across the
bow, then yes, manager time.)

Cheers,
Raven

--=20
@

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From: "Tracey C" <grrliegeek@elenari.net>
Sender: syleniel@gmail.com
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
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On 4/9/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:On Monday 09 April 2007
07:13, Charlotte Oliver wrote:

> > Given that it had to be done and I was making no headway fast, I opened
> up
> > a support case with Cisco. We pay for the support contract to be able to
> > do this sort of thing.


OK, I can relate to this professionally. I work in a helpdesk, so people
call me for support. I also have to contact Dell on occasion for support
under contract.

> I said, "I don't have a ton of experience with VOIP. Here's what I'm
> > trying to do, here's what I've gleaned needs to be done from the
> > documentation. Here's what I've tried and here's where I'm failing to
> > understand something. Can you please help with the configuration?"
> >
> > I then got a lecture about how I really didn't belong in the position I
> was
> > in, I really couldn't just maintain a system like this, I was completely
> > out of my league, incompetent, needed training, etc., etc.


There are two things I see here. The first is that the person made an
assumption, probably because he heard a female voice, that you had no clue
about what you were doing.

Regardless, the lecture was completely unprofessional. If I were to tell
some user that called up that they had no business doing their job I would
*at least* be written up. I would also not accept this from any of the Dell
techs or any other contract vendor. It's understandable if you were probably
feeling a little hesitant or unsure because this wasn't an area you know
well. Many women feel that kind of hesitation when they aren't 100% sure of
something. This doesn't excuse the lecture.

> I actually nearly burst into tears on the phone. It was so completely out
> > of line with what I had been expecting.


*hugs* It does feel like an ambush! Bad tech.

He apologized, as he had
> > presumed that I was coming from a pure PBX background.


OK, he gets points for the apology. However, the lecture was still
unprofessional. He needs to learn to not do that to callers, regardless of
his assumptions about their background.

So who has some ideas how to handle situations like this? What do you say to
> an idiot tech support droid who would rather criticize and belittle you
> than
> do his job?


"Let me speak to your supervisor"
You don't need to explain, or yell, or listen to anything more. Just insist
on speaking to the person's supervisor. This is exactly what I would do if I
got this kind of lip from one of the Dell techs. I know it is also how a
customer would respond if myself or one of my coworkers told them they
couldn't do their job.

Wouldn't you consider this a breach of contract, in addition to
> being personally insulting and generally a loathesome human being?


I'm not sure it's a breach of contract, except if you're refused support.
Since the person eventually did provide support, the terms of the contract
were probably upheld. It is however, justifiably termed harassment. I know
that in my company we have a strict anti-harassment policy that extends not
only to employees, but contractors and people we work with.  This goes for
other companies. Just another thought and possible avenue to consider. I
agree that the lecture was insulting, unprofessional, rude and uncalled for.

My first impulse is to not even bother with Mr. Dork, but insist on an
> escalation. Then when your situation is resolved, file a formal complaint
> with Mr Dork's boss. Does this sound like an effective tactic?
>
> It is what I'd do.


-- 
Tracey C

From yandapanda@verizon.net  Tue Apr 10 01:54:18 2007
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Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 17:53:35 -0700
From: Danielle Dows <yandapanda@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
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Carla Schroder wrote:
> Great stories, thank you everyone! I won't clog the list by responding to 
> every one, even though they're all fuel for a lot of great discussion, so 
> I'll start here:
>
> On Monday 09 April 2007 07:13, Charlotte Oliver wrote:
>   
>> Given that it had to be done and I was making no headway fast, I opened up
>> a support case with Cisco.  We pay for the support contract to be able to
>> do this sort of thing.  
>>
>> I said, "I don't have a ton of experience with VOIP.  Here's what I'm
>> trying to do, here's what I've gleaned needs to be done from the
>> documentation.  Here's what I've tried and here's where I'm failing to
>> understand something.  Can you please help with the configuration?"
>>
>> I then got a lecture about how I really didn't belong in the position I was
>> in, I really couldn't just maintain a system like this, I was completely
>> out of my league, incompetent, needed training, etc., etc.
>>
>> I actually nearly burst into tears on the phone.  It was so completely out
>> of line with what I had been expecting.  It was like walking into an ambush
>> when all I did was ask for the support that we pay for.  As we talked, the
>> fellow I was talking to eventually figured out that I did understand what
>> an IP address was and understood networking.  He apologized, as he had
>> presumed that I was coming from a pure PBX background.  He thought he was
>> doing me a favor by trying to make me understand how impossible it was that
>> I could possibly maintain this network.  (And yet, it has been working
>> quite reliably for three years now under my eye!)
>>
>> Regardless, I refused to call Cisco for any kind of support for months
>> after that, because the last thing I needed in addition to having a problem
>> was to be lectured to about how incompetent I am.  The worst part is that I
>> let him shake me, actually let myself believe him.
>>     
>
> So who has some ideas how to handle situations like this? What do you say to 
> an idiot tech support droid who would rather criticize and belittle you than 
> do his job? Wouldn't you consider this a breach of contract, in addition to 
> being personally insulting and generally a loathesome human being?
>
> My first impulse is to not even bother with Mr. Dork, but insist on an 
> escalation. Then when your situation is resolved, file a formal complaint 
> with Mr Dork's boss. Does this sound like an effective tactic?
>
>   
I have to admit that I have been there, done that (over a domain name of 
all the silly things) and got _great_ results. Although I didn't wait 
until the situation was resolved, since the resolution of Mr. Rude was 
"It is your problem and here is why I have nothing to do with it." An 
email to my sales rep was immediately copied to the president of the 
company and I got apologies from both within minutes. Mr. Rude was at 
minimum removed from working with me/our company.

Not only is that type of behavior rude and out of line, it is downright 
unprofessional. Customer service people cannot have attitudes like this 
and it needs to be addressed immediately, if for no other reason than to 
save the next person from this type of horrific treatment. Treatment 
like this has a very fast repercussion rate - you don't buy from them 
again and neither does your friend, or their friend or their friend and 
so on. Companies who care about their clients WANT to hear about things 
like this.

Danielle



From rsvidal@terra.com.br  Mon Apr  9 14:16:52 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
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Here in Brazil I listened a lot of histories like this about the mechanic=
 because they think cars are man stuff :(


---------- Cabe=E7alho original -----------

De: courses-bounces@linuxchix.org
Para: courses@linuxchix.org
C=F3pia: 
Data: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 08:37:01 -0500
Assunto: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice =3D Rude]

> Not exactly what Carla asked for, but seems to be somewhat on-topic.
> 
> We have multiple Internet connections and run BGP.  Our connection from=
 
> one of the *huge* providers had been flaky for over a week.
> 
> One day last week, after working 9 hours at the office and walking out =

> to find a flat tire on my car, I wound up on the phone with their tech =

> support from home, logged into the office looking at the router.
> 
> We have a somewhat unusual type of circuit.  We don't have a T1 
> controller defined on our Cisco.  I know this, and I know how to get th=
e 
> information on the type of circuit we have.  Perhaps because I told the=
 
> guy on the other end of the line I wasn't a router guru but could do 
> whatever they needed to walk me through, he refused to listen.
> 
> He asked me about six times to get the results of a "show controllers 
> T1".  I told him about six times there was no output from that command =

> because we have a different circuit type, but I could give him the info=
 
> from the show on the interface we have.  About the seventh time he aske=
d 
> I finally lost my temper.  I raised my voice at him, told him maybe I 
> needed another tech, that he needed to actually listen to what I said, =

> we don't have a freaking T1 controller.
> 
> Then I felt guilty.  It felt like I had been rude, when all I did was 
> insist he listen to me.  That's ridiculous.  He's the one who hadn't 
> bothered to read the information about our account.  He's the one who 
> hadn't listened to what I had been saying for *over an hour* on the pho=
ne.
> 
> However, the next morning when I got to the office and could send them =

> some info they had asked for the night before (and my little tech weeni=
e 
> sounded really offended when, after he said 4 times in less than two 
> minutes I needed to send the info in, and the fifth time I told him I'd=
 
> heard him the last four times he said it) I made it a point to tell the=
m 
> he had been dismissive, condescending and insulting.  I didn't actually=
 
> talk to them when they called back - I had a meeting after work and was=
 
> gone when they finally called - but I know they read the comment becaus=
e 
> the senior level guy tried to make excuses for him.  I don't think my 
> boss let them off the hook, but hopefully they'll at least think about =

> how they treat people.
> 
> I've tried very hard not to attribute the attitude to the fact that I'm=
 
> a woman, but I wonder.  I've also stopped feeling guilty about it, but =
I 
> still get angry enough I shake when I think about it.
> 
> Anyone else run into something similar?
> 
> LP
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
> 

|&kpt%*QmVpam9zDQoNClJlAA=3D=3D



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On 4/6/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
> ==Our Prime Assertive Human Right==
> Assertive Right 1: You have the right to judge your own behavior, thoughts,
> and emotions, and to take responsibility for their initiation and
> consequences upon yourself.

This has been the crux of my life for the past year.  If I had read
this statement a few years ago, my immediate reaction would have been,
"how is taking responsibility a right?!" ... of course I would not
have shared that with anyone!  I think the issue was that I only ever
saw the negative impact of my actions and emotions, so why would I
ever want to take responsibility for them?

I thought Gayathri's story was so interesting because I've never been
told what to do with my life professionally, other than "whatever
makes you happy".  Yet we are both responding to the same issue.

Only ever being able to see how my actions would hurt other people
(and subsequently feeling guilty for my choices) led me to a pattern
of "lies of omission".  I have never really had a problem making
choices, but communicating those choices (or thoughts or emotions) and
having to face the consequences is another story!  One example of this
that I will probably never forget is when I was living in a city
abroad with two of my friends, and at some point I decided to move
back to the U.S..  I was so scared of my friend's reactions that I
didn't tell them about my plans, and then of course they heard about
them from someone else.  So not only were they hurt that I was moving,
but that I didn't even tell them.

I have wanted to quit my job for years, but I have been using the
excuse "it would just be too hard on them if i quit" to avoid the
effort of moving on.  I wanted something magical to happen where I
would get this new opportunity without putting any work into it, and
until then I could just use my old guilt to justify not doing
anything.  So in this scenario, I really had to learn to embrace the
idea of responsibility as a positive thing!

The communication issue is a constant opportunity for learning in my
life.  At least I can look back and see that I've progressed.  Now, I
can actually talk to people about uncomfortable things that might make
them feel bad because I know that it will only be worse to deal with
it later if I withhold it.  I see that there is still an element of
avoid-the-worst-case-scenario there, rather than focusing on feeling
good about my choices or thoughts or feelings.  I have actually never
really thought about it that way, so thanks!!

Kristina

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Wed Apr 11 17:09:22 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:09:04 -0700
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On Monday 09 April 2007 07:34, K. Clair wrote:
> The communication issue is a constant opportunity for learning in my
> life. =A0At least I can look back and see that I've progressed. =A0Now, I
> can actually talk to people about uncomfortable things that might make
> them feel bad because I know that it will only be worse to deal with
> it later if I withhold it. =A0I see that there is still an element of
> avoid-the-worst-case-scenario there, rather than focusing on feeling
> good about my choices or thoughts or feelings.

These seem to be key reasons for not wanting to deal with difficult issues-=
=20
first of all, imagining the worst possible outcome, and not wanting to hurt=
=20
someone else's feelings. Which sounds a bit silly when you think about it-=
=20
contorting our own lives just to avoid possibly upsetting someone else.=20

Sure, I might be upset when someone tells me something I don't want to hear=
=2E I=20
might cry, or cuss, or stomp, or sink into a quiet depression and die and=20
then you'll all be sorry. Or I might say "Ok, I'm glad you were honest with=
=20
me, I needed to know this" and go from there.

How often have your worst fears not been realized? I can think of any numbe=
r=20
of events in my own life:

=2D When I talked to my boss about how I had too much work and needed help
=2D When I had to deal with the neighbor's obnoxious kids and dogs invading=
 my=20
yard and making messes
=2D When I had to tell a friend he had such bad breath I had to keep a safe=
=20
distance away

In all of these, I did not get a hostile or upset reaction, and in fact=20
everything was worked out easily. It was scary working up to actually talki=
ng=20
about it, but it turned out my fears were baseless.

Now what about the times when people did get upset? Then there are two=20
possible outcomes: they are upset for a little while, then get over it and =
we=20
work it out. Or they never get over it. Either way that's something you can=
=20
work with, and it's a lot better than living forever on tenterhooks.

Who has some ideas for how to prepare and psyche yourself up for a potentia=
lly=20
difficult confrontation? Maybe it's some fairly minor, like "Honey, that=20
hairpiece is really awful and I would like to help you find a better one" o=
r=20
something serious like "Boss, I'm filing a harassment complaint against=20
$Dorkperson."

What's the worst that could happen? What's the best that could happen?

=2D-=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook!=20
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
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On Apr 11, 2007, at 10:09 AM, Carla Schroder wrote:

>
>
> How often have your worst fears not been realized? I can think of  
> any number
> of events in my own life:
>

How about today, when I snapped a piece on someone's printer while  
cleaning it.... my boss just looked at it and said "Uh Oh" and then  
dug a similar printer out of the back to cannibalize parts out of to  
fix it. And helped with it like he had nothing better to do.

*thunk*

--Poppy

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From: "Gretchen Dziengel" <gdziengel@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
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On 4/11/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
> Who has some ideas for how to prepare and psyche yourself up for a potentially
> difficult confrontation? Maybe it's some fairly minor, like "Honey, that
> hairpiece is really awful and I would like to help you find a better one" or
> something serious like "Boss, I'm filing a harassment complaint against
> $Dorkperson."
>
> What's the worst that could happen? What's the best that could happen?

Wow, I've been following this course with a person I work with in
mind, we have, 'communication issues'.  The scary thing is that there
are other issues I am seeing in a whole new light.

Case in point:  We recently sold our house.  It was in a very small
town and we were worried that it wouldn't sell at all.  We ended up
selling it to a friend of ours, a very sweet older gentleman who
bought it for his daughter to live in.  Now, he's very sweet, but he's
also a pretty shrewed businessman.  He's our financial adviser,
manages our mutual fund and came to our wedding.

Nine months after he bought the house, our realtor called (small town
so she represented both parties, I know never to do that again)  She
said he was looking for a credit with the local propane company that
he thought was included in the purchase.  She said she wanted to let
us know, and maybe we should call him.  We had talked about offering
the credit, but we had to either cash out the credit or pay $1200 to
renew the propane contract by the end of August, which is before he
decided to buy the house.  We had the company cut us a check and
didn't talk about including it in the sale any more.  It was not
included in the purchase agreement at all.
After talking to the realtor, I called the propane company to check
the dates and then called him.  He was very polite and told me that
a) The realtor had told him we would include that credit and that's
why he came down to our final price.
b) The propane company had told him he had the credit a month after
they had written us a check.
c) When he went in to complain, they gave him the date and amount of
the check that they sent us.

He ended the conversation by telling me that I should talk it over
with my husband and he knew we would 'do the right thing'
We had an appointment with him later that week that he said he might
not make due to weather.  He never called to formally cancel it or
reschedule.  We talked about it and decided his problem wasn't our
fault because we had not promised him the credit, we had no knowledge
that the realtor had promised him the credit and we had nothing to do
with the propane company telling him he did have a credit when he
didn't.

However, we haven't talked to him since.  I'm avoiding it because I
don't want a confrontation.
So, the worst that could happen:  He could yell and scream at me.  He
could screw with our mutual fund but that's pretty unlikely.
The best that could happen:  He could sit down and tell me all about
how he's suing the propane company.  ( I wanted to sue for giving out
private information but it wouldn't be worth the lawyers fees. )

If the worst happens, I pull the money out of that fund and put it in
another one, or the same fund with a different financial guy.  We
wouldn't talk any more but we're not talking now.

Now I have to call him tomorrow.   Wish me some spine.

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Thu Apr 12 05:52:59 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:52:41 -0700
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On Wednesday 11 April 2007 21:02, Gretchen Dziengel wrote:
> On 4/11/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
> >
> > What's the worst that could happen? What's the best that could happen?
>
> Wow, I've been following this course with a person I work with in
> mind, we have, 'communication issues'.  The scary thing is that there
> are other issues I am seeing in a whole new light.
>
> Case in point:  We recently sold our house.  It was in a very small
> town and we were worried that it wouldn't sell at all.  We ended up
> selling it to a friend of ours, a very sweet older gentleman who
> bought it for his daughter to live in.  Now, he's very sweet, but he's
> also a pretty shrewed businessman.  He's our financial adviser,
> manages our mutual fund and came to our wedding.
>
> Nine months after he bought the house, our realtor called (small town
> so she represented both parties, I know never to do that again)  She
> said he was looking for a credit with the local propane company that
> he thought was included in the purchase.  She said she wanted to let
> us know, and maybe we should call him.  We had talked about offering
> the credit, but we had to either cash out the credit or pay $1200 to
> renew the propane contract by the end of August, which is before he
> decided to buy the house.  We had the company cut us a check and
> didn't talk about including it in the sale any more.  It was not
> included in the purchase agreement at all.
> After talking to the realtor, I called the propane company to check
> the dates and then called him.  He was very polite and told me that
> a) The realtor had told him we would include that credit and that's
> why he came down to our final price.
> b) The propane company had told him he had the credit a month after
> they had written us a check.
> c) When he went in to complain, they gave him the date and amount of
> the check that they sent us.
>
> He ended the conversation by telling me that I should talk it over
> with my husband and he knew we would 'do the right thing'
> We had an appointment with him later that week that he said he might
> not make due to weather.  He never called to formally cancel it or
> reschedule.  We talked about it and decided his problem wasn't our
> fault because we had not promised him the credit, we had no knowledge
> that the realtor had promised him the credit and we had nothing to do
> with the propane company telling him he did have a credit when he
> didn't.
>
> However, we haven't talked to him since.  I'm avoiding it because I
> don't want a confrontation.
> So, the worst that could happen:  He could yell and scream at me.  He
> could screw with our mutual fund but that's pretty unlikely.
> The best that could happen:  He could sit down and tell me all about
> how he's suing the propane company.  ( I wanted to sue for giving out
> private information but it wouldn't be worth the lawyers fees. )
>
> If the worst happens, I pull the money out of that fund and put it in
> another one, or the same fund with a different financial guy.  We
> wouldn't talk any more but we're not talking now.
>
> Now I have to call him tomorrow.   Wish me some spine.

Geh. Just what you want to look forward to! In the absence of a written 
agreement, this "shrewd" businessman doesn't appear to have much to support 
his claim. However it works out, best of luck to you, and have some nice 
stout spinal wishes!

Carla

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From jarich@perltraining.com.au  Thu Apr 12 06:32:52 2007
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Gretchen Dziengel wrote:

> However, we haven't talked to him since.  I'm avoiding it because I
> don't want a confrontation.
> So, the worst that could happen:  He could yell and scream at me.  He
> could screw with our mutual fund but that's pretty unlikely.
> The best that could happen:  He could sit down and tell me all about
> how he's suing the propane company.  ( I wanted to sue for giving out
> private information but it wouldn't be worth the lawyers fees. )

There's probably all sorts of things in between these two that could happen.  He 
could try to get you to do a deal for him to compensate him for this mistake. 
He could suggest that you mislead him.  Etc.  What he probably won't do is admit 
that he's in this situation because he didn't check the paperwork.  If he was 
counting on the credit and yet that wasn't written into the sales documents then 
that really is his fault; no matter what the propane company and real estate 
agent said to him verbally.  If he's a shrewd business man then he should know 
better.  Although it won't help you if you try to point that out to him.

I admire your courage in calling him, and I encourage you to write down a few 
things before you do so, and have them in front of you when you call him:

        We cashed out the propane credit in August when it was due, before
        the sale agreement between us.

        I do not know what the realtor said to you about the credit. -- I don't
        know why she said that.

        I do not know what the propane company said to you about the credit. --
        I don't know why they said that.

        I know that you've been inconvenienced, but this isn't our fault.  We
        didn't lie to you.

        The credit is not covered in the purchase agreement.

(Or whatever works for you).  I find this helps sometimes to prevent me from 
apologising for things which aren't my fault and trying to fix things by 
compromising my situation.  I try to make the sentences neutral sounding, so 
that I can read them off in whatever tone is required.  Sometimes I feel like I 
sound like a broken record, but it prevents me from raising my voice, or 
breaking down and crying.

> If the worst happens, I pull the money out of that fund and put it in
> another one, or the same fund with a different financial guy.  We
> wouldn't talk any more but we're not talking now.

It's always good to have a plan for the worst and yours sounds very sensible. 
Part of the problem seems to be miscommunication between him and the realtor. 
Perhaps a calm discussion with him will result in him realising that you are not 
the cause of his problem and then he can take it up with the realtor and propane 
company.

All the best,

        Jacinta

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Thu Apr 12 19:02:21 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:02:00 -0700
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On Wednesday 11 April 2007 23:32, Jacinta Richardson wrote:
> It's always good to have a plan for the worst and yours sounds very
> sensible. Part of the problem seems to be miscommunication between him and
> the realtor. Perhaps a calm discussion with him will result in him
> realising that you are not the cause of his problem and then he can take it
> up with the realtor and propane company.

Quite right. I'd also like to suggest that whatever you decide, live with it 
in peace. Sometimes we make decisions we like, sometimes the outcome is not 
what we want, but it's pointless to waste energy on the guilts and regrets. 
Learn from it and move on.

Here is yet another example from mine own endlessly fascinating life: like all 
good Westerners (Western United States) the third most popular hobby, after 
drinking lite beer and spitting, is fighting over water. All the farmland 
here is on flood irrigation from rivers and creeks. Naturally the water is 
over-committed, and there are a sizable number of property owners who just 
aren't happy if they can't irrigate their fields into swampland. Never mind 
that they're wasting three-fourths of the water and damaging their soil, you 
just can't be a Big Tuff Rancher Person if you don't steal and waste water.

I spent my first two years here fighting my upstream neighbors. Those fools 
have nothing better to do that spend their days dreaming up new ways to be 
annoying. Yes, we have a watermaster and recourse against water hogs, but 
it's a full-time job keeping on top of things. Me, I have a life.

So now I rent out my pastures to a neighbor and let him have all the hassles. 
I'm planning to sell the place and move next spring, so that solves my 
short-term hassles. If I were planning to stay I'd sell my ditch water 
rights, dig an irrigation well and set up sprinklers. That costs around 
$4000, but it's more efficient, not wasteful of the water, and less labor. 

Some folks would consider that 'giving up', and that Big Tuff Persons don't 
let themselves be taken advantage of. I think it's a much saner use of my 
time and resources.
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: "Katrina Owen" <binaryjane@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
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On 4/6/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
> Lesson 2: When Nice = Rude

Huh. Once I was in a relationship for six years beyond the 'use by
date' because I couldn't bear to hurt his feelings.

Wasting six years of both of our lives seems pretty rude to me!

From jarich@perltraining.com.au  Tue Apr 10 03:13:54 2007
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Carla Schroder wrote:

> Share similar stories with the list. They don't have to involve you, but it 
> would be fun and helpful to have some different scenarios to discuss.

In the vein of similar stories to what we've had here...

A few years ago, back when I was renting, we moved into a house that needed some
work.  The property manager (we were renting via a real estate agent) assured us
that those few small tasks we identified would be fixed without a problem.  Well
time passed and there was always some excuse, and then the property manager
left, so we were assigned another one.

Now the tasks weren't that big and mostly we didn't care, but - as happens in
old houses - a few more tasks built up.  I notified the property manager (I
think we were on to number 3 now, but it might have been number 4) of these
tasks and he always said he'd talk to the landlord and get back to me.  Which he
never did.  This went on for about 2 months and then it was Christmas and I
finally had some free time.  So I checked my rights; downloaded a formal notice
of repairs and filled it in.  I took it straight over to the agent's office and
got them to sign that they received it.

Such a notice gives them 14 business days to do the repairs, or we can take them
to the tribunal (a housing issues specific court).  With Christmas and new years
holidays this was almost 4 weeks - ending on about the 8th Jan.  So come the 6th
or 7th of Jan, I called up the property manager and asked why I hadn't heard
from him and whether he was going to arrange the fixes for us.  Well!  He tore
into me, said it was totally unreasonable for me to expect them to do the
repairs so close to the holiday period, that he'd been arranging the repairs in
good faith before he got this, and now the landlords were unhappy.  That I could
take them to the tribunal if I wished, but it wouldn't get the repairs done any
faster; and the tribunal wouldn't choose in my favour because of my unreasonable
timeframe.  He also said the tasks we'd identified were our problem - because we
moved into the house knowing that those faults existed.  And on and on.  He then
demanded to be told then and there whether we'd be taking the issue to the
tribunal.  I mumbled something non-committal like: I haven't decided yet.

I hung up and burst into tears.  What I expected was something like: I'm sorry I
haven't spoken to the landlords, can you give me an extra week.  Or possibly a
request for when would it be good for the landlords to come around.  Not to be
attacked for standing up for myself.

Once I stopped crying I got angry.  Furious even.  I called up my housemate and
told him what had happened.  We both agreed that his behaviour was
unprofessional and completely uncalled for.  So when he got home, we wrote a
letter to the property manager's manager explaining that we were not willing to
work with ourproperty manager anymore because of how rude he had been.  It
covered our full rental history at the place (12 months), with all of our
property managers, the regular (but unfulfilled) assurances of getting the fixes
done and the new tasks that had risen.  My housemate took that letter in, and
had it signed for.

2 days later, I got a phone call from our new property manager explaining that
the landlord was available to come and do the repairs and asking if they could
come over right now!  I asked for 30 minutes (I'd just woken up) and they did
the tasks without a problem.

All the best,

        Jacinta

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
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 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From valoriez@zimres.net  Thu Apr 19 11:49:12 2007
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From: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 2: When Nice = Rude]
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 03:29:32 -0700
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On Friday 06 April 2007 13:54, Carla Schroder wrote:
> Lesson 2: When Nice = Rude
>
> We're off to a great start! Thank you everyone for your thoughtful,
> inspiring posts.
>
> If you don't have a copy of "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" I recommend that
> you find one. We have a number of good book recommendations; this is still
> my #1 choice.
>
> Clytie Siddall posted a "Basic Human Rights" list, which I copied below.
> Manuel Smith, the author of "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty," includes a
> similar list, The Bill of Assertive Human Rights. This is number one:
>
> ==Our Prime Assertive Human Right==
> Assertive Right 1: You have the right to judge your own behavior, thoughts,
> and emotions, and to take responsibility for their initiation and
> consequences upon yourself.
>
> I'm willing to wager that most of us were raised completely contrary to
> this. I know I spent a good portion of my life fighting with this nebulous
> disapproving judge in my head who didn't approve of much of anything I did.
> I had a hard time doing anything on my own authority; I always needed
> permission and was forever striving for what I thought I should do, rather
> than what I wanted to do.

::snip::

Hi, everybody, I'm a bit behind, but I have been following along. I have loved 
reading everyone's dreams, and also, the good retorts!

I finally got _When I say no_ the other day from the library, and after 
reading the first few chapters, realize that I need to buy it. How did I 
overlook this great book for thirty years!?

Up though my 40s, I fought that feeling of constant guilt, because that's what 
being a mom does to a lot of women, I think. You are being pulled so many 
ways, you have so many demands on your time, on your emotions, that it just 
seems impossible to "do it all." Indeed it is! No one can do it all! 

But we can CHOOSE, and our dreams and values are what should inform those 
choices, not what everyone else thinks! 

I've shed the guilt, mostly, but have yet to truly embrace my dreams. I look 
forward to this class helping me along in that process. I would like my 50s 
to be happier and even more guilt-free. :-)

It'll be fun! Thanks for teaching this course, Carla.

Valorie

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From: "Noirin Plunkett" <plunkett@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On 3/30/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
> What do you want?

I want...

- to be lead for the next European instance of the conference I help organise
- to be a preacher (maybe not right now - but someday)
- to be a crackshot programmer
- to understand pointers, and how they work and stuff (should probably
do this before the previous one)
- to learn how to take brilliant photos (instead of just relying on
taking lots =))
- to go to a conference in Toronto (a particular one, not  just any ol' one)
- to live in cool & interesting places, while I'm still young enough
not to want to put down roots just yet
- to go backpacking again
- to get out more, be more sociable, even just with the friends I already have

Noirin

From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Sat Mar 31 22:05:20 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 05:52:07PM +0100, Noirin Plunkett wrote:
> - to learn how to take brilliant photos (instead of just relying on
> taking lots =))

Actually, taking lots of photos *is* what the professionals do.
The next step is being ruthless in what you discard.

(Sorry, back to your regular scheduled programme...)

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From rudy@edsons.demon.nl  Sun Apr  1 09:17:41 2007
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 05:52:07PM +0100, Noirin Plunkett wrote:
>   
>> - to learn how to take brilliant photos (instead of just relying on
>> taking lots =))
>>     
>
> Actually, taking lots of photos *is* what the professionals do.
> The next step is being ruthless in what you discard.
>
>   
Combined with continuous analysis on *why* the kept is better than the 
discarded, and integrating the results of that analysis in the taking of 
the new photos.
> (Sorry, back to your regular scheduled programme...)
>
> Kathryn Andersen
>   


From kdelvare@nerim.net  Sat Mar 31 19:18:01 2007
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From: Karine Delvare <kdelvare@nerim.net>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:30:34 -0700
Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:

> Forget about "what will people think." Anyone who thinks your dreams
> are wrong or stupid is a lamer and not worthy of you.

For a long while, people in my life have been telling me "you shouldn't
start this new hobby, you already have too many and you don't finish
anything". I have thus been refraining from trying some things that
attracted me, just knowing that I would hear that again.

Nevertheless, with time I have been able to accomplish some small
or not so small things in several of those activities I started. I
built confidence on that and started following my instinct on pursuing
new hobbies. That's the way I work, and I'm glad I stopped caring about
"what will people say when they'll know I picked yet another activity".
I just take advantage of whatever motivation I have for whichever
project, whenever it happens, and I am very proud of the results,
because there are always results when I listen to my motivation.

Karine

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Carla Schroder wrote:
> What do you want?

Ultimate dream: to write, and to live so far back in
the Cascade Mountains that I can both have an animal
rescue and also help endangered species get a better
foothold on survival, without nearby neighbors
claiming that I'm encouraging animals that
inconvenience them. (That translates to - so I don't
have to shoot neighbors that shoot the animals ;)

When the stress of being the only female sysadmin plus
the most experienced sysadmin at work got to my
health, I left and started an information research
business (if I have to pay for the Masters in Library
and Information Science degree, then it ought to make
some money in return, right?). So I'm trying to build
that up to the point that I can move out in the hills
and start my farm, where I can bring the animals. But
I've no idea how long that's going to take, and am
still living in a city. Blech.=20

I volunteer at a local animal rescue, but it does
damage to see the critters kept in cages when they
need to run and actually live.=20

Finding the way to do this work is the hard part.
While no one accuses me of lacking a spine
(argumentative sort that I am), the idea of dealing
with banks for mortgages and  the various other
aspects of managing such a farm is daunting. People in
suits who believe in regulations and rules are scary
sorts. =20

But one of these days...


=20
_________________________________________________________________________=
___________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...=20
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun Apr  1 04:06:59 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:06:36 -0700
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On Friday 30 March 2007 12:30, Carla Schroder wrote:
>
> What do you want?

I'm so glad I asked me! Here are a few random snippets for anyone who wants a 
peek inside the Head of Carla:

* beer
* chocolate
* comic books
* snoring cats

Oops, wrong window. Let's try a different one:

I'm going on 50 years old. That's right folks, mark the date on your calendar- 
August 6, 2007. I accept loot of all kinds. And I have an actual on-topic 
point to make here- in recent years, I've come back to a lot of my childhood 
dreams. When I was a wee tot, I was both the ultimate bookworm and the 
ultimate tinkerer. I wanted to know how everything worked, how to fix it, and 
how to make it better. Most of the time I was frustrated because no one would 
teach me. My dad is very accomplished and can do all kinds of things, but he 
didn't teach us kids much of it. What few things I did learn were awesome, 
like photography and using a darkroom, a bit of woodworking, and a bit of 
auto mechanics.

I was absolutely nuts about the space program. I had models of the Apollo 
spacecraft and the moon landers and the Rover and posters and books. I 
thought I wanted to be an astronaut. In hindsight I'm glad I didn't go that 
route, because the space program turned to poo.

Then I thought I wanted to be an astronomer. But I didn't know how and didn't 
know how to learn. In high school I went totally off the rails, and spent 
most of it getting high. I graduated, thanks to lax standards.

The biggest defect in the way I was raised was my parents never taught me how 
to set goals, how to dream big, or how to work to get what I want. I spent a 
good part of my life figuring that out on my own. The most valuable lesson I 
ever learned, and have to keep re-learning, is this:

The person who knows where she wants to go will get there.

I wasn't taught how to work with people, or how to ask for help. I'm still 
figuring that one out. 

My personal dreams fall into roughly three categories: professional, material, 
and personal.

Professional
Work from home. Have my own personal way cool home office set up the way I 
like. Set my own hours. Become sought-after enough to be choosy about 
assignments. Climb to a pay scale that lets me take a lot of time off. Build 
a reputation as someone who is independent and reliable, not like a 
typical "journalist" shill, and be respected by computer geeks.

Material
Own a nice home on beautiful acreage. Clean air, good well, nice neighbors, 
lots and lots of elbow room. Have a nice garden, some chickens, a workshop, a 
luxurious whirlpool tub, and an upstairs bedroom with a great view. Get a 
little RV and explore the backroads.

Personal
Find someone totally awesome to share my life with, with no compromises or 
thoughts of "meh, it's Ok, I could do worse." Learn to play the violin. 
Re-learn piano. Play oldtime country and western swing music in a band. Have 
more time and money for play and travel. Learn better people-coping skills 
and don't get pushed around. Lose weight and get fit enough to hike 8 miles 
in the hills without having a heart attack.

I'm thankful to say I have accomplished some of these. My real list is way 
longer, but I shan't weary you with the whole thing.

Your turn!

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Mallory.Chua@students.olin.edu  Sun Apr  1 06:20:42 2007
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I'm 20 and graduate from college at the end of May. I don't know what I 
want to do with my life, but I'll type what I can anyway.

In 2 months, I want to:
  * have graduated from college with my electrical engineering degree - 
by a good margin, not just barely. (currently: barely)
  * have developed a stable strategy for dealing with ADHD (currently: 
denial) and a study plan for bolstering the areas in EE and CS I feel 
I'm weak on (currently: everything).
  * be on good parting terms with my professors and classmates - more on 
my part than theirs; I want to tie up loose ends with people I feel I've 
let down in some way during my four years here.
  * have said thank you everyone who's touched my life at college.
  * have an intelligently designed financial and savings infrastructure, 
including the beginnings of investment for retirement, which is 
independent from my parents' finances... and includes a monthly 
allowance for books.

In 2 years, I want to:
  * be fluent in at least one non-English language (currently: shaky 
Japanese and very rudimentary spoken Mandarin).
  * have contributed substantially in a technical way to at least one 
open-source software project.
  * be living in my own place (probably with roommates), not with my 
parents or an older relative as is the custom in my family.
  * be a regular practitioner of Tai Chi or some other martial art.
  * be able to run 2 miles in under 15 minutes and/or do 100 push-ups.
  * have developed and released at least one open-source hardware 
project (probably a circuit design with microcontroller code).
  * have edited at least 100 Wikipedia articles.
  * have gone on a date. (have gotten over my phobia about relationships.)
  * have started on my round-the-world trip to learn about engineering 
education (a long story; ask if you'd like to hear it).
  * be able to go on a solo week-long backpacking trip (currently: have 
never backpacked)

In 20 years, I want to:
  * have gotten or be en route to my PhD in a technical field (may get a 
degree in education or design first, though)
  * have started a startup (or joined one very early).
  * have written a book.
  * have gone on at least one cross-country bike trip (currently: have 
never biked more than 8 miles).
  * have taught a college course. (currently: hope to become a professor)
  * have a treehouse. preferably self-built.
  * have done at least one of the following: bungee jumped, hang glided, 
gone on the vomit comet, or flown a plane/copter.
  * have worked or lived in a non-US country, preferably a developing 
country, for at least a year.

When I retire, I want to:
  * not really retire, but have enough financial security to 
volunteer-work wherever I want.
  * have mentored at least several young people closely
  * be alive, active, and healthy.
  * own a house or building which I've built or seriously modified 
myself, which has living space, a workshop, a great kitchen, studio 
space, etc. and serves as a locale for informal interdisciplinary 
classes on all sorts of intellectual subjects.
  * travel, a-la Erdos, visiting friends and colleagues to tinker on 
random projects.
  * have seen engineering education become a legitimate field of study.
  * have seen design and design education become rigorous, well-known 
areas of research.
  * have made knowledge more broadly accessible to all people with the 
desire to learn, somehow.

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From: Laylaa <laylaa+linuxchix@gmail.com>
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My dreams...

Well, right now I'm craving a house (with an awesome kitchen).
I would also like to be able to do some real cooking (not from recipe
books alone) so maybe I should start learning (decadent desserts too).
I want to take great pictures.
And travel.
And learn some languages and become fluent in the ones I supposedly
learned once upon a time.

And find out what my dream job is...and get it...and love it...
I'm fed up of not knowing what I want to do but I also want people to
stop hassling me just because I don't know what I want to do. So what
if it's been...5+ years of that.

I want to be happy and healthy.

I also crave nice shoes that fit!

Laylaa

From amandaangell@spin.net.au  Sun Apr  1 08:21:36 2007
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As Laylaa said, I also wish I knew what I wanted to do with my life. I've been 
wandering around aimlessly for over 5 years since I left school, with 
absolutely no direction. I think not knowing what I want has become an easy 
excuse as to why I don't start something.

I recommend to Laylaa to take a cookery course - I did, and even though I 
didn't make a career of it, it was really one of the better things I've done 
with my past. Great fun, and you'll use the knowledge (at least, some of it) 
for the rest of your life.

I have an interest in just about anything, but that's as far as it ever goes. 
I never get involved in anything too much. Perhaps it's psychological. :) 
There has been so many "dreams" of mine in the past, but I've never done 
anything about them.

One day I'll have a home, with my husband (marriage is harder than I thought 
it would be so far, and it's not yet been 2 years). We'll have one or two 
children. We'll both be successful and more confident in ourselves and our 
abilities. We'll have pets and chickens (chooks) in the backyard, and no 
noisy neighbours to upset us. :) It'll be our piece of heaven we come home 
to, if we don't already work from there.

I've travelled some of Australia (where I live) but it wasn't as great as I 
thought it would be. Some bits were fantastic, for sure, though. My health 
wasn't great then either, but now things are better with the the 
hypoallergenic diet (if you want to know, just ask) keeping me very well 
lately. I would love to travel overseas when I have the money to do it more 
comfortably, and learn another language while living and working there for a 
year.

I want to do something that will help people, that will change things. I want 
to do something I am needed for, and recognised for, and paid comfortably 
for. :) I think I'm asking too much. But I've always felt that if I knew what 
I wanted, then nothing could stop me. But I'm wondering if it's simply a case 
of just choosing *something* rather than finding *exactly* what it is I want.

Late last year I chose Journalism. I started a correspondence course for it. I 
am into the 2nd assignment, and it's not what I was hoping for and I can't 
find the enthusiasm to continue. (Which is totally unlike me, because I 
always finish a course, even if it's not for me. Eg: Commercial cookery, 
retail operations, natural resource management...) So, just choosing 
*something* didn't work.

About shoes - we have the technology. We can scan a persons foot, and surely 
make a pair of shoes perfect for that individual person! Why isn't this 
happening yet??? hehe.. I hate shoe shopping!

I'm hoping that I'll find the inspiration I need soon. In the meantime I'm 
earning money and supporting my husband who is a full-time student. I'm very 
proud of him for taking the leap into full-time study, and I know that he'll 
support me in whatever I choose, when my time comes.

Amanda.

From listpig@earthlink.net  Mon Apr  2 00:57:23 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Interesting time to discuss dreams.

I'm in the middle of a divorce.  My spouse of almost 24 years decided fairly
abruptly last summer that his future was as a woman; perhaps the
relationship could have weathered that had that not been the maul that split
the log wide open and showed all the termite damage in the marriage.

So here I am, 53 years old, just coming off a knee replacement (he walked
out two weeks before the surgery, which was mid-February).  I haven't worked
full time in six years, and then only briefly; I spent the marriage
primarily raising his children from a previous marriage.

<deep breath>

OK, wow.  Starting over, with a vengeance, not necessarily by choice.
Completely alone---my parents are dead, I'm an only child, my stepchildren
are pretty distant, emotionally---both a scary place to be and a wild
opportunity.  What to do?  Where to go?

I don't want to stay where I am (suburban Chicago).  Everyone I know is
"mutual friends"---I really need to move on, to people who will be
supportive of ME.  What I'm seeing in theory is people "not taking sides" in
the divorce, but going out of their way to be "very supportive" of the sex
change---which means what I'm seeing in practice is him/her getting a lot of
calls, hugs, support and me getting uncomfortable looks and comments like
"Oh.  Hi.  It's you," that feel very like "Oh, so you're the one who brought
the bubonic plague to the picnic."  Intellectually, I know that's because
they don't know what to say.  Emotionally, it feels like they HAVE taken
sides, and it sure as hell isn't my side.

Pretty similar response from at least one stepdaughter.

So that should free me to go *anywhere*, do *anything*.  But still---even
though I'm on very precarious ground with that stepdaughter, and skeptical
about whether there's any point---I want to stay close enough to see my
granddaughter from time to time.  She's two years old and I adore her,
although she's definitely being used as a weapon against me at the moment
(withholding visits).  I've thought about that a lot, but even if I never
get to see her again, I need to know for myself that it's not because I went
hundreds or thousands of miles away---that it was 0% my doing.

So that limits where I can go.  OK, let's put that on hold a minute.

What the heck do I want to do?  Well, what am I qualified to do?
Secretarial/administrative/clerical stuff.  Low level techie grunt stuff.
Doable, but doesn't pay particularly well, and doesn't truly move my soul.
Retail sales.  Ditto with a vengeance.  And I'm getting a little burned out
on techie stuff, especially the "sit at a desk all day" part.

Well, if I could go back to school, what might I want to do?  Better yet,
what did I want to do when I was growing up, just to be told "not an option
for girls"?

Cars.

Racing?  Well, that boat not only sailed a long time ago, it sank. :)
There's an age where you're just not going to do that.  Doesn't matter what
you "might could" have done back in the day.  It's over.

Fixing?  Hmm, that's open these days.  Working on race cars would be best,
but I can deal with working at a dealership.  And girls *do* get to do that
now, unlike back in the day when Janet Guthrie, driving the Indy 500, had to
pee in the public toilets because women weren't allowed in the garage area,
period.  Might not be a *lot* of women doing it, but it's doable.

Well, what will that take?  Two years, associate degree program.  And
looking around, if you want to tack anything race-specific---or motorcycle
related---on that, Ivy Tech, Indianapolis campus, is a right fine place to
be.

Indianapolis, 2 1/2 hours down the road---not far at all.  An area where my
granddaughter's parents spend a respectable amount of time, as a matter of
fact.

So that's what I'm working on.  Trying to pack up/clean up/sell this house.
Have my eye on a house in Indy, a mile from the speedway.  Small, but quite
adequate for a single woman and her cats, five miles from the school.  We'll
see if I can pull this off.

If *everything* went according to my dreams, I'll make this work....and my
granddaughter will come to visit.  Perfect dream would include her parents
deciding to move to Indy, actually :)

And the dream also requires that I make new friends, and build a new social
support system, that's stronger and less dysfunctional.  Dunno if I'm
capable, but I'm willing to try.

Then of course, there's the bravado statement---but it's not entirely untrue
either.  Which is that somewhere down the road this requires that I get a
tat (I already have it designed: crow in flight in front of triple moon),
and a motorcycle, and dye the tips of my bright red hair blue.

And, by God, redefine the term "blue haired old lady" for now and all time.
:)

--pig



From mary@home.puzzling.org  Mon Apr  2 08:47:04 2007
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From: Mary Gardiner <mary@puzzling.org>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Sun, Apr 01, 2007, Listpig wrote:
> What the heck do I want to do?  Well, what am I qualified to do?
> Secretarial/administrative/clerical stuff.  Low level techie grunt stuff.
> Doable, but doesn't pay particularly well, and doesn't truly move my soul.
> Retail sales.  Ditto with a vengeance.  And I'm getting a little burned out
> on techie stuff, especially the "sit at a desk all day" part.

A note on this, because I've seen this happen a few times: ASK
LINUXCHIX. There are women here with industry and educational contacts,
with career histories, with friends. LinuxChix members who are on the
job market or particularly who are looking at a new career or career
change can and should ask for help from their fellow Chix.

-Mary

From kdelvare@nerim.net  Sun Apr  1 08:00:48 2007
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Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 10:01:11 +0200
From: Karine Delvare <kdelvare@nerim.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Friday 30 March 2007 12:30, Carla Schroder wrote:
>
> What do you want?

Thank you Carla for making me sit and finally write this down, because
it's been a while I've been wanting to do it to have a clear mind about
what activities to privilege - I don't have enough time to pursue
everything!

So, hobbies I'd like to train further or just spend more time into are,
in decreasing importance order:
* digital painting
* web development
* contributing to GIMP
* keeping the pace on my huge stitch-cross piece so I can really finish
it in 5 years
* Japanese learning
* gaming (I stopped considering that a "time-filler for when I'm down",
I do enjoy exploring new games' concepts and I may do something with
those one day)
* digital photography
* DDR / jogging / swimming

Professional goals: work from home, put the passion back in my job
(which probably means going freelance).

Material goals: finding a house, in a suburb town with enough public
transportation to not need any car. Buying one of these awesome
Panasonic notebooks that Val linked to long ago :)

Karine

From popcorn09@gmail.com  Sun Apr  1 20:17:31 2007
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From: "Aneesha Govil" <popcorn09@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Hi Carla,

Do we have to post the dream list here, all of it?

Just wondering if it is required to do it like others.

--Aneesha

On 3/31/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
>
> What do you want?
>
> It's a simple question, but it's one that most women can't answer. In
> general,
> we're not raised to aim high or to think that we can do or have anything
> we
> want, or that we can put our needs and wants first. We're raised to be
> good
> little servants, and to take care of everyone but ourselves. So your first
> homework assignment is to cast off your inhibitions, and ignore all those
> little voices that are continually telling you "no, you can't do that."
> Dream
> as freely and as largely as you can, and write it down. Forget about
> getting
> it "right", which another common Curse of Woman. Nobody but you can tell
> you
> what your real dreams and ambitions are. Even if you think you already
> know
> this stuff, give it a try- you might surprise yourself.
>
> Forget about "what will people think." Anyone who thinks your dreams are
> wrong
> or stupid is a lamer and not worthy of you.
>
> Forget about "I can't do that, it's not possible." That's not the point.
> The
> point is to throw away all the garbage that holds back your thoughts, and
> to
> be 100% self-honest.
>
> Forget about "I don't know what my dreams and ambitions are." They're
> there-
> you just have to sweep away the crud they're buried under. Maybe they are
> modest, like becoming a beekeeper or having a little house with an
> excellent
> garden to putter in, or finding mates for all the single socks in the
> world.
> Maybe they're grand, like working for world peace or traveling in space.
> Maybe they're character-related, like "I want to be more spiritual and not
> so
> obsessed with collecting stompy boots." Whatever they are, your job is to
> figure out what they really are and to put them on paper.
>
> If you need a jumpstart, ask yourself if you're doing the work you really
> want
> to do, or living where you want, or have the kind of family life you want.
>
> If you want, share some of your dreams with the list. It might help other
> people de-rust and start some ideas flowing. But it's not required. The
> idea
> is to practice being 100% honest with yourself, and opening up those
> clogged
> dream-pipes.
>
> Hang on to your dream list, because you're going to need it throughout the
> course.
>
> Your other assignment is to get the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by
> Manuel J. Smith. It's an excellent book that's been around forever, and
> which
> contains much of the inspiration for this Course.
>
> Another excellent book is "Mastering the Gentle Art of Verbal
> Self-Defense" by
> Suzette Haden Elgin. It excels at teaching how to recognize common verbal
> attacks, especially of the "dang, I think that's an attack but I'm not
> sure
> why," and how to not get sucked into off-topic, defensive, and pointless
> circular arguments.
>
> Lesson 2 will be posted next Friday-ish. In the meantime, feel free to
> discuss
> this lesson on the list. Please preserve the subject line.
>
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Carla Schroder
> Linux geek and random computer tamer
> check out my Linux Cookbook!
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
> best book for sysadmins and power users
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>

From plunkett@gmail.com  Sun Apr  1 23:00:40 2007
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From: "Noirin Plunkett" <plunkett@gmail.com>
To: "Aneesha Govil" <popcorn09@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Aneesha,
Nope - it's totally ok to keep your list to yourself =)
If it's easier for you to be honest - and to dream! - if you know that
only you get to read it, keep the list to yourself. But do make a
list, somewhere - you might need it later in the course!
Noirin

On 4/1/07, Aneesha Govil <popcorn09@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Carla,
>
> Do we have to post the dream list here, all of it?
>
> Just wondering if it is required to do it like others.
>
> --Aneesha
>
> On 3/31/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
> > If you want, share some of your dreams with the list. It might help other
> > people de-rust and start some ideas flowing. But it's not required. The
> > idea
> > is to practice being 100% honest with yourself, and opening up those
> > clogged
> > dream-pipes.
> >
> > Hang on to your dream list, because you're going to need it throughout the
> > course.

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Mon Apr  2 03:48:11 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Sunday 01 April 2007 12:50, Aneesha Govil wrote:
> Hi Carla,
>
> Do we have to post the dream list here, all of it?
>
> Just wondering if it is required to do it like others.
>
> --Aneesha

No, it is not required, Aneesha. What's more important to actually do it and 
spend some time thinking about it. We'll be coming back to this over the 
duration of the course, so hang on to your "dream list"!

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From anna@musoftware.de  Sun Apr  1 21:58:11 2007
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From: Anna Loosen <anna@musoftware.de>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Hi Chix,

thank you for telling your thoughts.

It's great to see that I'm not the only one who has to figure out her life at
the moment :)

And my plans for the next time...

- Not being so shy talking with guys about computers
- Getting my Mail/Name/Webserver done
- Get motivated with my studies (It's not really boring, it's just... pff)
- Go to a conference and really participate instead of just sitting around
- Doing some really good partys :)
- Ignore the voice that tells me to finish one thing before starting sth new
- Try to do things i'm really interested in
- Find sth really interesting to program (maybe some network stuff)
- Contribute in an open source project
- Let my hair grow longer (and not dye it in funny colors any more ;)

Have fun :)
        perks

--
Anna Loosen                                          anna@musoftware.de

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From: "Julie Bovee Hill" <joulie@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On 3/30/07, Carla wrote:
> What do you want?
>
> If you want, share some of your dreams with the list. It might help other
> people de-rust and start some ideas flowing. But it's not required. The idea
> is to practice being 100% honest with yourself, and opening up those clogged
> dream-pipes.
>

I started keeping a dreams list (I called it a my Goals list) about 12
years ago. My life seemed somewhat dead-ended and I'd read in a
self-help book that it was a good thing to do. I typed it up in a
fancy font, put a pretty background photo behind it, printed it out,
stuck it inside of a fancy gold frame and hung it up where I'd see it
every day, and it helped me tremendously.

My goals were roughly for a 5-year time frame and they were big, huge
goals that seemed somewhat insurmountable when I wrote them up, but I
did it anyway and in the end, I did achieve most of those goals within
about 5 years. I was quite surprised about that. I think that seeing
them on the wall every day kept me focused on the end-result. I highly
recommend creating this list.

Now that I'm thinking about it again, I see my list is in terrible
disrepair, so I'll de-rust it and hang it back up again this week.

Thanks for the kick, Carla!

Julie

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Having recently graduated with my=20

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Resend :)

There was more than this one line "Having recently graduated with my"


Having recently graduated with my Masters, I have started involving =
myself more into my professional and personal development.

Here are my goals for professional and personal progress.

Professional
------------

* Get involved more into OSS activities
* Start summer camps for girls ( something small ) and teach them =
computers specifically get their interest!
* Tutor girls from the CS program at school and help them with their =
issues ( as I work in an University )
* Get proficient with Python
* Get efficient with Linux

Personal
--------

* Practice and perfect violin ( just started lessons early this year )
* Read the books I have in list ( the ones I put off when I was heads =
down on MS studies )
* Travel around the US more and meet new people

Cheers
g3

From dondashguitar@gmail.com  Mon Apr  2 04:17:03 2007
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From: "DonDashGuitar" <dondashguitar@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 23:10:11 -0500
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I already have a tiny little taste of what technically inclined women have
to cope with all the time.  I had to build up my nerve to post this but
despite the reversal in gender I can certainly identify with what I'm
reading.  I was an electronics technician in Land Mobile Radio for 25 years
but surface mount electronics, factory depot warranty service and mail-order
sales companies squeezed me out of business and left me no venues.  Which
didn't matter so much to me because I never really cared about the job
anyway.

All I ever wanted, my whole life, was a moderately comfortable place to
live, enough to eat, some sort of challenge and someone to love.  I'm 59
years old and two years ago my dreams came true when I married Lisa Miller.

We work part time jobs and are full-time caregivers for my mother, who has
Alzheimer's.  If either of us had a full time job, the other would be forced
to bear the burden of taking care of mom so we work at whatever odd jobs we
can find and schedule ourselves so that one of us is alway here "on duty".

She has food sensitivities and I love to cook.  If she eats things she
shouldn't her skin breaks out in horrible lessions and her scalp develops
weeping sores.  She also cooks, and between us we share the challenge of
keeping her skin free of lesions.  We're learning Linux, blogging at
Lockergnome, she's taking classes through Texas A&M Extension Service to be
a Texas Master Gardener, I'm flirting with the notion of learning Python
(but being a wimpy wuss about it so far).  I also play the guitar in one
beer joint or another one or two days a week (but I don't drink or smoke)
and, because it seems to go hand-in-hand with learning Linux, I've been
learning about computer hardware.

A little over a year ago we each had one computer.  Today we each have
three.  She has Windows XP Home, PCLinuxOS, and Debian Sarge; I have Windows
2K Pro, Debian Sarge and 64Studio.  I've built several additional computers
from parts I scrounged from friends, local computer shops, or bought on eBay
 to give away, with free tech support, to local seniors and/or kids.  We've
given away five so far and I have three more ready to go.

Caring for mom can be stressful but I have a partner who shares the burden
with me.  I wake up in love every day and have many interesting, challenging
things to do and learn.  I 'm living the dream.  I know I won't always have
it; life doesn't work that way but now is not the time to question.  Now is
the time to enjoy and cherish.  I'm happily building memories on the
assumption that I'll live to enjoy them.  What more can any of us do?

Don Crowder
http://www.don-guitar.com
http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/eldergeek/
I've forwarded all your posts to Lisa and, because I am


From isabelle.hurbain@pasithee.fr  Mon Apr  2 11:32:54 2007
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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:12:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
From: "Isabelle Hurbain" <isabelle.hurbain@pasithee.fr>
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> What do you want?

I guess my answer would be "to get a good equilibrium between my family,
professional, and personal life".
The way I see it, I can achieve this by being a "working staying-at-home
mom". I'd love to get back on the technical translation/writing track. My
ideal would be to be able to stop working altogether while my kids are
babies and to do this kind of work from home while they are at school.
This way, I could get them back from school and still have a nice family
life. As for more personal achievements, I really wanna learn Russian and
Islandic, continue being a bookworm and find new fun things to learn.

Isa


From eevaj@welho.com  Mon Apr  2 18:06:46 2007
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From: Eeva =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E4rvinen?= <eevaj@welho.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 12:30:34PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> What do you want?

This is so difficult to answer.  I've written a number of posts
already and piped them to /dev/null one after another.  God, this is
difficult. 

Relationship- and family-wise I'm happy.  No particular needs there,
except maybe, just maybe a little extra TLC would be nice every now
and then.  I'm working on that.

Bodywise, I want to be leaner and fitter.  I'm going there already.

I want a better job, and that seems to equal with working somewhere
else than where I work now.  I feel my being is at odds with my
workplace's official politics.  My workplace is still yakking about
whether or not to do lgbt inclusiveness, and to me it's becoming more
and more of a sticking point.  I want a job that doesn't make a fuss
about me being a lesbian.  This is the real stickler now.

I want to be more calm and collected.  I want to sleep more.  I want
to fish more.  I want to hike more.  I want to sleep in a tent in
wilderness more.  This is the more department of me.

I want to be a strong and loving mother to my daughters.



Eeva

From chris.madrone@gmail.com  Mon Apr  2 19:30:45 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
From: chris <chris.madrone@gmail.com>
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On Fri, 2007-03-30 at 12:30 -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> What do you want?

In the grand scheme of things I want to reduce my impact on the earth,
help stop war and end poverty.  But I'm a simple monkey, so most of the
things I want on a personal level are pretty mundane.

* I'm pretty spineless when faced with a person who needs help with
something that I can do and I know the person either can't do at all or
can't do as well. When faced with a person I know is perfectly capable,
I have absolutely no problem saying no. So, I want to become comfortable
in saying no to someone who really does need help but probably has other
resources they could tap before asking me. 

* I find that while I want to be doing more volunteer work in the
community, I don't have a lot of time or energy to do so because I'm
doing too many "favors" for individuals. I want my volunteer time to
have greater community impact.

* recently I've awakened to the fact that while I'm excellent at
managing household finances and being a clever little frugalist, I know
little about long term financial planning. So I want to learn more about
long term financial planning. 

* I want to own a home - either build or buy. This is part of the long
range financial planning goal but because we're both environmentally
sensitive, this is also a growing necessity for our health.

* This year, I want to get certified as a skipper by the sailing club so
we can take boats out for weekends without having to buy and maintain
one. In the next 10 years, I want to spend 6 months at the Wooden Boat
School in Port Townsend and build a 36'ish boat that we can take on long
cruises (the class builds it for cost of materials). So, that's another
motivating factor behind the "long term financial planning" goal.


-- health and play goals -- 

* The past few years (nose to monitor), I've fallen into poorer physical
condition than I ever imagined possible. I used to lead an active
lifestyle which means I never established a personal workout routine
outside of competitive sports. Since my lifestyle has changed and no
longer keeps me in shape, I need to figure out this whole regular
workout routine thing. 

* in general, I want to use my bicycle more often than the car, take
more weekends off work, find short hikes and kayak paddles I can do
after work on weekdays, and get better at landing my loaded kayak
through surf so I can camp at my favorite camping spots. 


-- projects that need to be finished --

* I'm converting a '63 falcon futura to an electric vehicle. I'm
currently restoring the body and interior and planning the frame
modifications needed to accommodate battery weight and motor torque. I
want to get it on the road by next spring. 

* after I get the futura EV on the road, I'm really interested in
exploring open source automotive OS's - there's a lot of room under the
dashboard for all kinds of gadgetry and the existing OS automotive
"projects" seem to be mostly speculative (and in German). I probably
should learn C for this.

* I started a garden planning software project ages ago that I want to
make usable this year - the goal is to optimize my garden's year-round
production and minimize the amount of time I spend planning rotations. I
also want to improve programming skills. 

* I want to create a website for planning kayak trips and hooking up
with paddle partners. I tend to put these sorts of pet projects on a
back burner and I want to complete at least one a year, preferably 2. 

* By the end of this summer, I want to have either finished all the
other unfinished projects around the house or pass them on to others who
will finish them. (motorcycle restoration, truck restoration, broken
chairs, bamboo propagation, kayak repair, etc, etc). 


-- work -- 
* I need to improve my programming skills - in college I focused mostly
on databases, declarative and markup languages which was fun, but only
part of the equation. I've been having more fun with OOP now that I'm
away from college and all the bluster and ballyhoo that seemed to
surround programming (blech). Fortunately I have a good basis to work
from, but I do have some work to do.

* my portfolio/resume website is embarrassing and I need to redesign it.

-chris



From gdziengel@gmail.com  Tue Apr  3 14:33:22 2007
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From: "Gretchen Dziengel" <gdziengel@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On 3/30/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
> What do you want?
>

(Sorry for being late to the party, I had to give this some thought.)
Job:
1) I want a job where my decisions are respected and my input is
valued.  (Kinda have this now)
2) Eventually I want my own business, I'm not sure doing what.
3) I want to become more self disciplined so that I can handle making
myself do the things that suck about having a business.  (Right now if
I worked out of my house I would end up spending my day on the couch.)
4) I want to learn how to stand up for myself with problem people.
(Get a Spine!)
5) I want a job where I am always learning something, fresh challenges
every day.

Family
1) I want children.
2) I want to celebrate my 50th Anniversary with my husband.
3) I want to own a house that my children can come visit after they
leave and feel like there is no place like home.

This is obviously something I need so think about much more.  I have a
lot of short term goals, but when it comes to 'dreams' I don't get
very far.

From binaryjane@gmail.com  Wed Apr  4 01:00:55 2007
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From: "Katrina Owen" <binaryjane@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On 3/30/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
> What do you want?

I want to write about 150 childrens books about science (for kids 3 -
5 years old).
I want to be a professional programmer.
I want to be a full time mom.
I want to be financially free so that I can spend my time doing all of
the above without having to chase down food and rent.
I want to be gorgeous.

How far along am I towards these dreams?
Lessee...

* Kids books:
I have about 10 blueprints, mostly about physics, but also some
biology, suitable for 3 - 4 year olds.

* Programming:
Learning java. Freelancing webdesign. I intend to pass the Sun
Certified [something-or-other] within the next six months. Preferably
both the 'programmer' and the 'web components' exams.
I live in Scandinavia, but once my husband's Green Card is in order,
we will be moving to Los Angeles, where I intend to find a job as a
junior developer.

* Full time mom: Married to a person who makes me feel like the most
fortunate creature alive, every single second of the day. Kids will
probably manifest themselves within the next couple of years.

* Financially free:
Yeah, right. I am working as a bartender and barista. Have previously
worked as a medical transcriptionist, receptionst, bilingual
secretary, fork-lift driver, etc., etc., etc. The real irony is that I
have a degree in genetics, which I probably won't use for anything
beyond suggesting to people that I am smart enough to learn stuff.
Oh, and maybe writing kids books about genetics.

I hate hating my jobs.
If I never had to work to earn money again, I would program, write
kid's books, and be a mom (mind you, not a housekeeper. I'd definitely
hire someone for that!).

I started setting aside 10 % of what I earn, to put towards
investments (as per 'The Richest Man in Babylon'). I have gotten my
finances under control, and feel a surge of pride every month when I
see my investments account grow, and I have earned more than I have
spent.

I started dreaming and being ambitious about five years ago, when I
read 'I Could Do Anything if Only I Knew What it Was' (and 'It's Only
Too Late If You Don't Start Now') by Barbara Sher. I didn't know what
I wanted, but I knew that I wanted something scientific, so I chose to
go for a degree in biology. Why biology, when I want to program? Well,
I didn't know five years ago that I would like programming as much as
Iike knowing cool things about the human brain. It was the right thing
to do, because it got me moving, and once moving, I could start
maneuvering. Hard to maneuver when you are stuck.

Regards,
Katrina

From listpig@earthlink.net  Wed Apr  4 01:21:43 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On 4/3/07 19:53, "Katrina Owen" <binaryjane@gmail.com> wrote:

> It was the right thing
> to do, because it got me moving, and once moving, I could start
> maneuvering. Hard to maneuver when you are stuck.

Wow, I think this may be a really crucial, central statement....or some
variation of it.  Kind of "If you're stuck, do SOMETHING.  If it's not the
right thing, you can still work from there......but you can't accomplish
anything if you're staying stuck."

Especially if you can manage to stay open to the idea that your first path
*isn't* the be-all and end-all, and might only be a stop along the way, and
not the destination.....

--pig



From ivanovi3@hotmail.com  Wed Apr  4 07:29:17 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Hi all,

I'm wondering if I could drop a line or two? I want to learn to be more 
self-assurance, to know what I want for life and live a happy life..

ivy 


From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Fri Mar 30 22:16:31 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
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Carla wrote:
>Maybe they are modest, like becoming a beekeeper or having a little
>house with an excellent garden to putter in, or finding mates for all
>the single socks in the world.  Maybe they're grand, like working for
>world peace or traveling in space.  Maybe they're character-related,
>like "I want to be more spiritual and not so obsessed with collecting
>stompy boots."

That's one of the frustrations I get with "dreams and ambitions" -- I
feel guilty because one is *supposed* to be ambitious, one is *supposed*
to want to "get ahead", to climb the career ladder, to become a CEO (or
at least get into Management).  Or if one is creative or artistic, one
is *supposed* to want to sell one's work, one is *supposed* to want to
become famous.

But I don't want any of those things.  I don't want to become famous, I
just want to be appreciated by those who know me.  I don't want to order
people around, I want to help them and mentor them.  I don't want to be
sucked into the game of "he who dies with the most toys wins".

I love programming.  You'd have to chop my hands off to get me to stop
programming, whether I was paid for it or not.  I like my job; I like
the people I work with.  I like being creative (art, craft, and writing)
but I don't want to go through the soul-destroying grind necessary to
get paid for it.

Character-related goals?  Sure, I want to become a better person --
doesn't everyone?  I have chronic health problems, sure I'd like my
health to improve, but I'm not sure that there's anything much I can do
about it...

As for working for world peace... I guess the best I can do is working
for Internet peace in my little corner of the 'net.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From ella-linuxchix@dymaxion.org  Fri Mar 30 22:49:44 2007
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From: Eleanor Saitta <ella-linuxchix@dymaxion.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] Re: [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 07:46:23AM +1000, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> That's one of the frustrations I get with "dreams and ambitions" -- I
> feel guilty because one is *supposed* to be ambitious, one is *supposed*
> to want to "get ahead", to climb the career ladder, to become a CEO (or
> at least get into Management).  Or if one is creative or artistic, one
> is *supposed* to want to sell one's work, one is *supposed* to want to
> become famous.
> 
> But I don't want any of those things.  I don't want to become famous, I
> just want to be appreciated by those who know me.  I don't want to order
> people around, I want to help them and mentor them.  I don't want to be
> sucked into the game of "he who dies with the most toys wins".
> 
> I love programming.  You'd have to chop my hands off to get me to stop
> programming, whether I was paid for it or not.  I like my job; I like
> the people I work with.  I like being creative (art, craft, and writing)
> but I don't want to go through the soul-destroying grind necessary to
> get paid for it.

Great!  Those are wonderful things.  Mentoring people is a great goal -- you
don't have to be doing it to get ahead; it's a good thing on its own, just
like being appreciated by the people you know.  Getting better at your arts,
programming and otherwise, are great goals.  Finding ways to do the things you
love without the way you want to, regardless of whether those ways result in
money and fame, or just enough to get what you need in life, is one of the
best things you can to for yourself.

Honestly, I think if your happiness depends on being successful at what you do
on someone else's scale, as opposed to just being able to do what you want and
do it the way you want to, you're up for a much harder life.

/Ella

[Hrm, it appears the .sig monster agrees with me on this one...]
-- 
I once lived a day as though it would be my last.

People are still angry.

From SRS0+Imrf+13+chionh.org=claudine@internode.on.net  Sat Mar 31 02:04:17 2007
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:

> That's one of the frustrations I get with "dreams and ambitions" -- I
> feel guilty because one is *supposed* to be ambitious, 

[...]

> But I don't want any of those things.  I don't want to become famous,

I feel the same way. I think being able to say "I don't want to be ambitious or 
follow the culture of success" requires courage and that can itself be a kind of 
perverse ambition---to be able to say to others, "I am happy not to want any of 
that".

Claudine

From linda@meridian-ds.com  Sat Mar 31 12:00:23 2007
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Wow - how nice to hear someone else say this.  I get funny=20
looks when I say I just want to work and do my job well.=20
 I don't want to own a business.  I don't want to be a=20
manager - team leader maybe, which is pretty much what I=20
am - but I want to *work*.  Have definite projects I can=20
look at and say "Done" with some pride, not just constant=20
open ended "improve the company" goals.  Not that I think=20
improvement is bad; without it we'd fold; but having a=20
concrete finish is something important to me.

LP

> That's one of the frustrations I get with "dreams and=20
>ambitions" -- I
> feel guilty because one is *supposed* to be ambitious,=20
>one is *supposed*
> to want to "get ahead", to climb the career ladder, to=20
>become a CEO (or
> at least get into Management).  Or if one is creative or=20
>artistic, one
> is *supposed* to want to sell one's work, one is=20
>*supposed* to want to
> become famous.

From amk.sorsa@gmail.com  Sat Mar 31 14:54:27 2007
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From: "Anne Sorsa" <amk.sorsa@gmail.com>
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2007/3/31, Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>:

>
> That's one of the frustrations I get with "dreams and ambitions" -- I
> feel guilty because one is *supposed* to be ambitious, one is *supposed*
> to want to "get ahead", to climb the career ladder, to become a CEO (or
> at least get into Management).  Or if one is creative or artistic, one
> is *supposed* to want to sell one's work, one is *supposed* to want to
> become famous.


Oh, this could be written by me... Well, when I was young my mother hope
that I would become a lawyer or economist. Fortunately she didn't forced me
to study (she believed that I should make my own mistakes and live my own
life). But when my mother died 1996 I found myself thinking "What if...?".
Even now 10 years later I sometimes asking that same question at myself
"What if...?"

I love computing! I love built and fix computers. I can't have enough about
these machines. So, I hope that I will have enthusiasm and energy to learn
more about computing/open source, maybe someday I will have possibility to
have a some kind of degree... Second thing that I hope is that I manage to
raise my 3 children to good and honest adults. And I really hope that I let
them chose themselves what they want to do ;)




-Anne-
-- 
*****************************************************
Life doesn't move as fast as we think.
The world is better if we don't know everything.
*****************************************************

From baxrob@gmail.com  Mon Apr  2 10:20:46 2007
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From: "r baxter" <baxrob@gmail.com>
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I just wanted to express my appreciation for all the sharing of
personal dreams and stories here lately.

I think you're all wonderful and hope you acheive what you're working toward.

It's heartwarming to read the sincerity and inspiring to see the sharing.

Thanks,
Rob

From poppychix@gmail.com  Tue Apr  3 14:05:51 2007
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From: Poppy Lochridge <poppychix@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 06:58:52 -0700
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Subject: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Getting kind of a late start on this as my list subscription was set  
to only receive emails on certain threads, and with recent and  
proposed changes, that's just not happening anymore. Meh.

And then as I started reading the archives, I was hesitant to post  
anything. It's been so long since I was an active member, so much has  
changed, etc etc. But then I saw 'pig's message and realized that I  
can still come back, do still have something to say.

I am 32, recently married, and even more recently released from the  
nightmare that I called "work" for the past 5 years. In the way that  
the universe manages to look out for us, I managed to find a new job  
within weeks of the final layoff date. I never intended to stay that  
long. I'll try and condense the last 3 years by saying that I have  
been expected to deliver the impossible daily until it pushed me into  
stress, burnout, and depression. Anything that wasn't actively  
helping to heal all of the above got left by the wayside as I  
struggled to find the energy to simply exist.

What do I want? On one hand, knowing that I'm going to be dealing  
with a lot of self-trust issues for a while yet, my dreams seem  
pretty foggy. On the other, going through bad experiences has a  
tendency to clarify what one wants and doesn't want.

Personally, I want time with my husband and time with my good  
friends. I want to be a happy and relaxed person again. I just want  
to be a pleasant and relatively unstressed person again. I want it so  
bad my teeth ache with wanting it.

I want my hobby to go places - I've picked up photography in the last  
few years, won a few small awards, and I get better every year. At  
least, I hope I do.

Professionally, right now, I've just started a new position. My  
biggest goal in the short term is to get settled in and get  
comfortable with the work. Long term, I've dropped a lot of my  
professional goals. Material success isn't worth changing who I am or  
giving up relationships that matter to me. All I really want right  
now is a job that offers me a challenge - new things to learn,  
different questions every day - while not expecting 120% of my time  
or energy. I want to be able to set limits on how much energy I  
expend in the average week and have those be respected. If it means  
eventually getting out of IT and going back into administrative work,  
I'll do it. If it means making the place I am into the place I want  
to be, that's fine too.

Materially.... so much material depends on professional and what I'm  
willing to do. Perfect world, I want a house. A small one, with  
enough rooms that we can have an office, my husband can have a work  
area for the case mods he wants to do, and I can have a small studio.  
Three bedrooms and a garage would be sufficient. With lots of storage  
space. I'd like to have enough saved that we can travel. Like to have  
enough savings to not have to worry about one of us losing a job. And  
I'd like to be able to keep my camera equipment up-to-date. Oh, and a  
MacBook :)

--Poppy


From raven@oneeyedcrow.net  Tue Apr  3 17:10:24 2007
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From: Raven Alder <raven@oneeyedcrow.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Hiya --

* Poppy Lochridge <poppychix@gmail.com> [2007-04-03 06:58:52 -0700]:
> And then as I started reading the archives, I was hesitant to post  
> anything. It's been so long since I was an active member, so much has  
> changed, etc etc. But then I saw 'pig's message and realized that I  
> can still come back, do still have something to say.

        It's good to see you!  There seems to be a resurgence of folks
who'd gone quieter popping back up again (me included), and I couldn't
be happier about it.

        My goals:

I want to travel more, to new and interesting places, have adventures,
and help people.  My current career is pretty well suited to this
(traveling international consultant), but I often don't get to pick
where I go other than saying "ooh, ooh, pick me" when a prospective gig
comes up.  I fill in the gaps by putting in talks at technical
conferences in interesting places, but in future am also going to select
for "can bring a friend" or "know someone there"; that's more fun for me
than travelling alone.

I want to turn my suburban townhouse scratch-clay yard into something
beautiful and fruitful.  I've done a bunch of reading about
permaculture, but have not had an actual garden in maybe ten years.
This is a long term project (you don't build up topsoil overnight), but
I'm really looking forward to it.

I want to square away my finances.  I'm contributing to my retirement
plan and savings every month, and that's great, but I have yet to go
around and consolidate the 401Ks from, uh, my entire work history before
this job.  (Naievely, I thought that if you left a job you lost that
money.  Doh.  So I have a lot of tracking down to do, though I am
pleased that I haven't lost that money after all.)

I want to improve my (currently pathetic) Irish and Japanese.  Making
time to study regularly is the biggest challenge for me here, and
finding regular conversation partners is something that I know I should
do but (ha!) have not yet made time for.  Eventually, I want to be able
to plop down in a Gaeltacht or in Harajuku and talk to the people
sitting next to me.

I want to successfully bring the major project that I'm working on for
my research (backbone protocol fuzzing) to completion.  I think I can do
it, but I've never been the chief project person on something so
programming-intensive before, and there are a lot of people looking at
the project, so I'm nervous but undaunted.

Cheers,
Raven

-- 
@

From jarich@perltraining.com.au  Fri Apr  6 08:30:12 2007
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Hi all,

I've been avoiding this one because I didn't know what to write.  Recently I've 
felt in absolute awe at how cool my life is, and so it kind of feels wrong to be 
wishing for more.  But there are things I still want, some big, some small:

        * I want to redo my house.  Renovate the kitchen, re-tile, pull down the
          wall paper in the lounge room, have a nice garden...

                None of this is hard, and I have the free time and money
                to achieve it but I haven't found the motivation to get started.

        * I want to lose about 30 kgs and increase my fitness.

                I'm actively working on this, and although it's slow, I'm
                getting somewhere....

        * I want to achieve my Stress and Rescue, and Deep diver qualifications
          for SCUBA.

                I expect to have at least one of these done by October.

        * I want to increase my reputation in the FOSS community as a coder
          which means actually joining some projects.

                I've made a small start here and expect to keep on.

        * I want to learn how to make candy like chocolate, licorice etc

        * I want to travel overseas, preferably to a conference, but also just
          just to travel.

In the much longer distance future I'd like to have a greater involvement in
        
        * reducing or removing this gender bias from IT

        * increasing Australia's sustainability from a food and water
          perspective

All the best,

        J

From rsvidal@terra.com.br  Fri Apr  6 23:30:15 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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I think sometimes is hard to "be you", just because all people are always=
 worry about your faults.
 I want to be more confortable with myself, especially about my body... I=
 dont want to worry about what thing
the "fashion".
 I want to have enough savings so I can just have fun about my work, stud=
y/research just what I like :)
 I want more time to do my voluntier work with "street animals" I want ch=
ildrens too.

Renata

---------- Cabe=E7alho original -----------

De: courses-bounces@linuxchix.org
Para: courses@linuxchix.org
C=F3pia: 
Data: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:06:36 -0700
Assunto: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]

> On Friday 30 March 2007 12:30, Carla Schroder wrote:
> >
> > What do you want?
> 
> I'm so glad I asked me! Here are a few random snippets for anyone who w=
ants a 
> peek inside the Head of Carla:
> 
> * beer
> * chocolate
> * comic books
> * snoring cats
> 
> Oops, wrong window. Let's try a different one:
> 
> I'm going on 50 years old. That's right folks, mark the date on your ca=
lendar- 
> August 6, 2007. I accept loot of all kinds. And I have an actual on-top=
ic 
> point to make here- in recent years, I've come back to a lot of my chil=
dhood 
> dreams. When I was a wee tot, I was both the ultimate bookworm and the =

> ultimate tinkerer. I wanted to know how everything worked, how to fix i=
t, and 
> how to make it better. Most of the time I was frustrated because no one=
 would 
> teach me. My dad is very accomplished and can do all kinds of things, b=
ut he 
> didn't teach us kids much of it. What few things I did learn were aweso=
me, 
> like photography and using a darkroom, a bit of woodworking, and a bit =
of 
> auto mechanics.
> 
> I was absolutely nuts about the space program. I had models of the Apol=
lo 
> spacecraft and the moon landers and the Rover and posters and books. I =

> thought I wanted to be an astronaut. In hindsight I'm glad I didn't go =
that 
> route, because the space program turned to poo.
> 
> Then I thought I wanted to be an astronomer. But I didn't know how and =
didn't 
> know how to learn. In high school I went totally off the rails, and spe=
nt 
> most of it getting high. I graduated, thanks to lax standards.
> 
> The biggest defect in the way I was raised was my parents never taught =
me how 
> to set goals, how to dream big, or how to work to get what I want. I sp=
ent a 
> good part of my life figuring that out on my own. The most valuable les=
son I 
> ever learned, and have to keep re-learning, is this:
> 
> The person who knows where she wants to go will get there.
> 
> I wasn't taught how to work with people, or how to ask for help. I'm st=
ill 
> figuring that one out. 
> 
> My personal dreams fall into roughly three categories: professional, ma=
terial, 
> and personal.
> 
> Professional
> Work from home. Have my own personal way cool home office set up the wa=
y I 
> like. Set my own hours. Become sought-after enough to be choosy about 
> assignments. Climb to a pay scale that lets me take a lot of time off. =
Build 
> a reputation as someone who is independent and reliable, not like a 
> typical "journalist" shill, and be respected by computer geeks.
> 
> Material
> Own a nice home on beautiful acreage. Clean air, good well, nice neighb=
ors, 
> lots and lots of elbow room. Have a nice garden, some chickens, a works=
hop, a 
> luxurious whirlpool tub, and an upstairs bedroom with a great view. Get=
 a 
> little RV and explore the backroads.
> 
> Personal
> Find someone totally awesome to share my life with, with no compromises=
 or 
> thoughts of "meh, it's Ok, I could do worse." Learn to play the violin.=
 
> Re-learn piano. Play oldtime country and western swing music in a band.=
 Have 
> more time and money for play and travel. Learn better people-coping ski=
lls 
> and don't get pushed around. Lose weight and get fit enough to hike 8 m=
iles 
> in the hills without having a heart attack.
> 
> I'm thankful to say I have accomplished some of these. My real list is =
way 
> longer, but I shan't weary you with the whole thing.
> 
> Your turn!
> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Carla Schroder
> Linux geek and random computer tamer
> check out my Linux Cookbook! 
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
> best book for sysadmins and power users
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
> 

|&kpt%*QmVpam9zDQoNClJlAA=3D=3D



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This is very late I guess :)

My biggest dream is to get out of IT.  My life took an unexpected turn
about 8 years ago when I graduated with a philosophy degree and one of
my friends who had started a web hosting company asked if I wanted a
job doing tech support.  At the time I knew how to use a shell (back
in the day when all we had for email was elm!) and how to write some
html but that was it. 8 years later I find myself the sysadmin, but
all along I've known that this is not the kind of work I want to be
doing.  Sure it's been fun, but it is certainly not "my bliss"
(thanks, Joseph Campbell).

That said, even though I don't want to be doing IT professionally, I
*do* want to continue to work on various activist-IT projects, which
are mostly women-oriented yay.  It would be utterly fantastic if this
manifested some small income, in the way of grants, so that it could
be something that I don't have to fund, seeing as how I won't have any
money to fund anything after I leave IT. :)  So I guess this means
learning something about grant writing, which has been a goal of mine
for years but I've never quite found the time to do it.

To make a living I want to teach yoga.  Ideally, I would be able to
teach and charge people less money than what I consider to be the
outrageous rates that people (including me) are paying now for yoga.
The reality of this may be a bit trickier since it is apparently
difficult to make a living teaching while charging the current
outrageous rates.  But anyway, the dream is to make yoga more
accessible to more populations, economically and culturally speaking.
I would LOVE to teach affordable classes that are super friendly to
the lgbt community.  Perhaps this could be related to the grant
writing.

In order to carry out the dream to teach yoga, I will need to fulfill
my second biggest dream, which is to become more articulate and less
constantly doubting everything I'm about to say.  Also I'd like to be
able to keep a thought in my head when speaking to a group.

Oh, and I want to get over my relationship phobias :).

Thanks for having this course, it's a great idea!
Kristina

From amk.sorsa@gmail.com  Fri Apr  6 06:56:14 2007
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From: "Anne Sorsa" <amk.sorsa@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] dreams
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Hello Kristina!

I really hope that you can accomplish all your dreams :) As I told earlier
in this list my dreams are be directed in IT.

Few days ago my aims to achieve my dreams got a bit harder. Because at the
present I work only 2 -3 days in a week I got letter in my local employment
agency and they told me that they want me to get full time job at the
"local" slaughterhouse. "Local" means that I have to drive 200 km at the
day. Oh! I'm so HAPPY!! And I don't need to tell you what kind of work I
have to do there. All this fuss because I have look for a job 6 months. Then
I finally found that part time job, it was not good enough for them in the
agency.

It makes me wonder, why some bureaucratic idiot has a right to torment me
and makes my life difficult.

Well, I won't take it...I will fight back! This just makes me so angry!

Anne
-- 
*****************************************************
Life doesn't move as fast as we think.
The world is better if we don't know everything.
*****************************************************

From sew000001@yahoo.co.uk  Sat Apr  7 13:39:59 2007
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From: sew w <sew000001@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 1: Dreams]
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Sorry I am joining in later than I intended. 
I wanted to say Hi everyone! 
... And say thank you Carla for starting this course. It promises to be very interesting and just what I need! 
I look forward to sharing in this with the rest of you out there. It's good to know I'm not going through this alone!

>> Your other assignment is to get the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by 
>> Manuel J. Smith.

I have found a copy second hand and it has been delivered! I'm very proud of myself!

>> Dream as freely and as largely as you can, and write it down

- I want to use more than half of my time on this Earth towards making the world a better place, environmentally and / or socially. E.g. minimising the negative impacts of my the lifestyle I enjoy, helping people in need, working with a NGO, or working for an employer that makes a positive impact that ties in with my hopes for the future. 

- I want to be more empathetic to others and respond to others more positively or encouragingly and less defensively.

- I want to be really, really good at SOMETHING I enjoy doing, and have people admire me for it. 

- I want to stay mobile and ready for new international adventures with my other half.


        
        
                
___________________________________________________________ 
New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. 
http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk 
From carla@bratgrrl.com  Fri Apr 13 23:04:22 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
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Subject: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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I'm bailing out of town for the weekend and don't have time to write an 
ordinary lesson, so how about everyone share their favorite comebacks and 
responses for those uncomfortable, annoying, enraging, and so forth 
occasions? Have fun and I'll see you Monday!

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Fri Apr 13 23:15:07 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 04:04:01PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> I'm bailing out of town for the weekend and don't have time to write an 
> ordinary lesson, so how about everyone share their favorite comebacks and 
> responses for those uncomfortable, annoying, enraging, and so forth 
> occasions? Have fun and I'll see you Monday!

The problem with satisfying retorts is twofold:
(a) I find myself thinking of all the things I *would* have said, rather
than what I actually said, for hours afterwards
(b) If one does come up with a satisfyingly scathing retort at the time,
one then feels bad afterwards, for not treating the person like a human
being, but an object.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From mary@home.puzzling.org  Fri Apr 13 23:51:19 2007
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From: Mary Gardiner <mary@puzzling.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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X-Nihilism: Immortality is all I seek... Give us this day our daily week...
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On Sat, Apr 14, 2007, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> (b) If one does come up with a satisfyingly scathing retort at the
> time, one then feels bad afterwards, for not treating the person like
> a human being, but an object.

Snappy comebacks are a weapon. It's true that it's at best mean and at
worst rather evil to use weapons on people indescriminately, but I think
comebacks have a use in situations where another person is treating me
as an object. In an ideal world, I wouldn't treat other people like
objects, but in situations where they treat me like one, I feel it's
important to defend myself against them and break the power they're
trying to establish over me.

After I've established the ground rule that I have weapons that I use in
self-defense in certain social situations, we can renegotiate the
social dynamic between us if we need to.

-Mary

From kmactane@gothpunk.com  Sat Apr 14 00:32:07 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts
        For All Occassion]
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Mary Gardiner wrote:
> 
> In an ideal world, I wouldn't treat other people like
> objects, but in situations where they treat me like one, I feel it's
> important to defend myself against them and break the power they're
> trying to establish over me.

Word.
                                                 --Kai MacTane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Playing dead and sweet submission,
  Cracks the whip deadpan on cue."
                                                 --Siouxsie and the
                                                   Banshees,
                                                  "Peek-a-boo"


From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Sat Apr 14 00:49:06 2007
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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:48:46 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 09:50:58AM +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> > (b) If one does come up with a satisfyingly scathing retort at the
> > time, one then feels bad afterwards, for not treating the person like
> > a human being, but an object.
> 
> Snappy comebacks are a weapon. It's true that it's at best mean and at
> worst rather evil to use weapons on people indescriminately, but I think
> comebacks have a use in situations where another person is treating me
> as an object. In an ideal world, I wouldn't treat other people like
> objects, but in situations where they treat me like one, I feel it's
> important to defend myself against them and break the power they're
> trying to establish over me.

I guess it depends on whether the person in question is an enemy or
someone one has to work with.  Whether it is better to parry or wound
with this weapon.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sat Apr 14 18:37:15 2007
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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:36:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
From: carla@bratgrrl.com
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Sitting here in a hotel room brought some things to mind some occasions
where being "nice" just isn't a good thing, and how we need to rely on ou=
r
own judgement, rather that what some people think are good manners or
appropriate behavior:

- Not getting on an elevator when there are scary people in it. "I'll
catch the next one" is perfectly appropriate when your warning bells are
going off. But won't their feelings be hurt? Probably not, and if they ar=
e
that's just another confirmation that you don't need to be confined with
them.

- Refusing to let someone into your room. It's your room, and your
personal safety. If they claim to be hotel staff, you can always confirm
with the front desk while they wait in the hall. Even if they wear
uniforms, you're not being silly by checking. Anyone can buy or steal a
uniform.

- Getting roped into "helping" a stranger. I've heard a number of
interesting dodges in my travels over the years, from confused drunks to
creeps pulling scams like "I lost my dog," "What's a good place to eat,"
"I need help buying a present for my wife." My answer is always "You have
confused me with someone who works here. Hang on and I'll call security
for you." It hasn't failed to get rid of them in record time yet.

--
Carla from wireless hotel that works!!

From laylaa@gmail.com  Sun Apr 15 09:09:28 2007
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From: Laylaa <laylaa+linuxchix@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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There was this guy I would always meet at the laundromat.
I'm nice. I'm friendly. Sometimes you start conversing while waiting for
dryers/washers.

He really bugged me tho. For various reasons I started changing my laundry
schedule and wandering into a shop/food while I waited for it to finish.
Stupid small town. *sigh*

Once I was waiting at the grocery for the bus to go back home and he saw me
and offered me a ride. I politely thanked him and said no thanks. He said,
but you have so many bags and you still have to walk after you get off the
bus. Still no thanks. His response to that was that I was behaving like a
little girl/child (for worrying about my security).

*sigh*
I don't remember what I told him exactly aside from "No I'm not behaving
like a child but an adult".

I wish I had a better answer then than just being stunned that someone would
call someone else childish for not taking a ride with a stranger. *I* could
even have been the crazed person.

Laylaa



On 14/04/07, carla@bratgrrl.com <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
>
>
> - Not getting on an elevator when there are scary people in it. "I'll
> catch the next one" is perfectly appropriate when your warning bells are
> going off. But won't their feelings be hurt? Probably not, and if they are
> that's just another confirmation that you don't need to be confined with
> them.
>

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun Apr 15 16:14:31 2007
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Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:14:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
From: carla@bratgrrl.com
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> There was this guy I would always meet at the laundromat.
> I'm nice. I'm friendly. Sometimes you start conversing while waiting fo=
r
> dryers/washers.
>
> He really bugged me tho. For various reasons I started changing my laun=
dry
> schedule and wandering into a shop/food while I waited for it to finish=
.
> Stupid small town. *sigh*
>
> Once I was waiting at the grocery for the bus to go back home and he sa=
w
> me
> and offered me a ride. I politely thanked him and said no thanks. He sa=
id,
> but you have so many bags and you still have to walk after you get off =
the
> bus. Still no thanks. His response to that was that I was behaving like=
 a
> little girl/child (for worrying about my security).
>
> *sigh*
> I don't remember what I told him exactly aside from "No I'm not behavin=
g
> like a child but an adult".
>
> I wish I had a better answer then than just being stunned that someone
> would
> call someone else childish for not taking a ride with a stranger. *I*
> could
> even have been the crazed person.
>
> Laylaa

I think there are two separate goals here- one is to protect yourself, an=
d
the other is to get through to this creep that you want him to get lost
and not bother you anymore. He definitely sounds scary, and you are right
to be wary. However, you are still left with the problem of having to dea=
l
with him.

Have you considered making a complaint to the police? I know he hasn't
actually done anything yet, but it's small comfort to be able to to say "=
I
told you so" after something bad happens. Do you have a neighborhood cop
that you can go to and say something like "I think this man is dangerous.
He tries to make me go with him in his car, and when I say no he tells me
I am being childish." When you put it like that, if your police are the
good kind, that should get their attention. Cluing in your family and
friends is also a wise move. This sounds like the kind of situation where
you need to put some energy into building some protections around
yourself, rather than worrying about the right thing to say to the creepy
guy, because I doubt there are magic words that will get rid of him.

Another tactic that often works is a show of strength. Gather friends and
family and go hunt the man down and have a little talk with him. Let him
know that you are not alone and defenseless, but someone with a lot of
people standing with you who are not afraid of creeps, and that he needs
to leave you alone, and find a different part of town to hang out in. Bad
guys get their way because good people are too passive- going after him
will get his attention.

Don't worry about being nice and polite- that's how women become victims.
Part of standing up for yourself is making appropriate fusses in
potentially dangerous situtations.

--
Carla



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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts
        For All Occassion]
From: chris <chris.madrone@gmail.com>
To: Laylaa <laylaa+linuxchix@gmail.com>
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On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 05:02 -0400, Laylaa wrote:
> There was this guy I would always meet at the laundromat.
> I'm nice. I'm friendly. Sometimes you start conversing while waiting for
> dryers/washers.
> 
> He really bugged me tho. For various reasons I started changing my laundry
> schedule and wandering into a shop/food while I waited for it to finish.
> Stupid small town. *sigh*
> 
> Once I was waiting at the grocery for the bus to go back home and he saw me
> and offered me a ride. I politely thanked him and said no thanks. He said,
> but you have so many bags and you still have to walk after you get off the
> bus. Still no thanks. His response to that was that I was behaving like a
> little girl/child (for worrying about my security).

I think the problem is that many women are taught to be polite and
conversational in spite of their gut instinct about an individual. 

It's taken me years .. and a lot of creep deflection to remember I have
no obligation to engage in polite conversation with someone against my
own gut instinct.

In a similar situation my response has been "I said no thank you".
There's a fine line ... in my experience too snappy of a retort can
escalate aggressive behavior whereas keeping it very simple (firm 2 year
old language) usually gets the result I want.

If a person has already escalated, you can always try flapping your
hands and giggle hysterically like an institutional escapee to shock
them out of it. Whatever works, eh? (worked for me and a group of
friends once when confronted by some frustrated skinheads). 

Seriously though, a good self defense course can work wonders for self
confidence when deflecting unwanted attention.

-chris


From laylaa@gmail.com  Mon Apr 16 17:06:16 2007
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From: Laylaa <laylaa+linuxchix@gmail.com>
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        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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Yes. This did teach me to just not talk to people or channel my quiet side
(which is a bit hard because as people know, I'm just too talkative). Or at
least, not necessarily not talk to people, just don't engage in extraneous
conversation with them.
It won't solve all my problems but it's a start?

In case anyone was worrying, this instance isn't really a problem anymore
because that was back when I was in school and now I'm back home, different
country etc (new challenges?).

Laylaa

On 16/04/07, chris <chris.madrone@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I think the problem is that many women are taught to be polite and
> conversational in spite of their gut instinct about an individual.
>
>

From chris.madrone@gmail.com  Mon Apr 16 17:15:50 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts
        For All Occassion]
From: chris <chris.madrone@gmail.com>
To: Laylaa <laylaa+linuxchix@gmail.com>
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well, I didn't actually mean to infer that women just shouldn't talk to
people - it's getting in touch with and following gut instinct that's
important to me. 

I've made a lot of friendly acquaintances by talking to strangers, and I
value being on a smile-nod basis with people everywhere I go. Besides,
it seems to me that the more we isolate, the more fearful we become and
we're just penalizing ourselves for not feeling safe.

.02
chris


On Mon, 2007-04-16 at 13:05 -0400, Laylaa wrote:
> Yes. This did teach me to just not talk to people or channel my quiet
> side (which is a bit hard because as people know, I'm just too
> talkative). Or at least, not necessarily not talk to people, just
> don't engage in extraneous conversation with them. 
> It won't solve all my problems but it's a start?
> 
> In case anyone was worrying, this instance isn't really a problem
> anymore because that was back when I was in school and now I'm back
> home, different country etc (new challenges?). 
> 
> Laylaa
> 
> On 16/04/07, chris <chris.madrone@gmail.com> wrote:
>         
>         I think the problem is that many women are taught to be polite
>         and
>         conversational in spite of their gut instinct about an
>         individual.
>         


From carla@bratgrrl.com  Wed Apr 18 20:21:01 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On Monday 16 April 2007 10:05, Laylaa wrote:
> Yes. This did teach me to just not talk to people or channel my quiet side
> (which is a bit hard because as people know, I'm just too talkative). Or at
> least, not necessarily not talk to people, just don't engage in extraneous
> conversation with them.
> It won't solve all my problems but it's a start?

I wouldn't go that far. I like talking to random persons in my travels; it's fun and you meet interesting people and learn neat stuff. Unless you live in a seriously scary town, you're going to encounter way more cool people than creeps.

>
> In case anyone was worrying, this instance isn't really a problem anymore
> because that was back when I was in school and now I'm back home, different
> country etc (new challenges?).

I'm glad you posted the story anyway, because it was a good lesson in thinking of different ways to deal with creeps. The point I want to emphasize is don't go it alone! Gather your allies, talk to people, talk to law enforcement. Stoic silence helps the bad guys.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:57:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
From: "Sheryl" <gubydala@his.com>
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Carla wrote:

> Sitting here in a hotel room brought some things to mind some occasions
> where being "nice" just isn't a good thing, and how we need to rely on =
our
> own judgement, rather that what some people think are good manners or
> appropriate behavior:
>
> - Not getting on an elevator when there are scary people in it. "I'll
> catch the next one" is perfectly appropriate when your warning bells ar=
e
> going off. But won't their feelings be hurt? Probably not, and if they =
are
> that's just another confirmation that you don't need to be confined wit=
h
> them.

In that situation I'm more likely to use the, "Oh, I left something in th=
e
apartment/car/office.  You go on, I don't want to hold you up." and make =
a
feign toward leaving (without turning my back of course).

In the "hurt feelings" department, I do think that unfortunately there ar=
e
situations in which white women are not so much listening to warning bell=
s
as stereotyping men of color.  I've gotten on the elevator with little
bent over old black men who aren't much threat to anybody but still see
white women shrink from the when an elevator opens.

I don't say that to encourage anyone to take an unnecessary risk in order
to be PC, just commenting on something I have seen in action.  And as a
very tall and large woman, I probably feel considerably less threatened b=
y
a strange man than someone who is smaller than average.

> - Refusing to let someone into your room. It's your room, and your
> personal safety. If they claim to be hotel staff, you can always confir=
m
> with the front desk while they wait in the hall. Even if they wear
> uniforms, you're not being silly by checking. Anyone can buy or steal a
> uniform.

Absolutely.  And it goes for your home too, unexpected visits by the gas
company and so forth.

And in the past few years there have been a lot of incidents where rapist=
s
and other bad guys pretended to be cops and tried to pull women over or
initiated a fender bender in order to get someone to pull over and get ou=
t
of the car.  It's my understanding that it's always OK to drive at a
reasonable rate to the nearest police station if anything like that
happens.

> - Getting roped into "helping" a stranger. I've heard a number of
> interesting dodges in my travels over the years, from confused drunks t=
o
> creeps pulling scams like "I lost my dog," "What's a good place to eat,=
"
> "I need help buying a present for my wife." My answer is always "You ha=
ve
> confused me with someone who works here. Hang on and I'll call security
> for you." It hasn't failed to get rid of them in record time yet.

Once again, I'm recognizing that I may have an extra edge of confidence
here because of my size and age, but I'm not nearly as skittish about
helping strangers.  I won't deal with anyone who's obviously drunk or
high, they're too unpredictable.  Nobody but nobody is going to get me
into a car or woods with them, and I'll blow off an obvious lech.  But I
give directions all the time, will change a bill or dollar coin if the
person doesn't look like they're going rob me if I get money out, or just
chat with strangers who are in a mood to chat (usually tourists, lonely
old people, people at a bus stop, even some of the local street people).=20
My philosophy is that "don't talk to strangers" is a necessary thing to
tell to children, but I should be able to do a little more fine-grained
sorting by now.  I've never had a bad experience with someone I've sized
up as being ok to talk to, and I've had some pretty interesting times.

Once again, this is not a criticism of you or anyone else who doesn't wan=
t
to operate the way I do.  But I wanted to bring this up because I have
been criticized many times by friends who were more comfortable with a
more "closed off" way of being.  It was never a situation that involved
them, they were reacting to things I told them after the fact.  Sometimes
I think there was a concern for my welfare, but generally I think it was
more "what I do is the right thing and you have to do what I do".  Relyin=
g
on our own judgement doesn't just work in one direction. (If that's still
parsing -- it's getting late).

I don't have that much problem obvious dealing with strangers, it's the
people I know who give me trouble.  :-)

Sheryl

From gardiner@ics.mq.edu.au  Mon Apr 16 04:17:26 2007
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From: Mary Gardiner <mary@puzzling.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On Sun, Apr 15, 2007, Sheryl wrote:
> My philosophy is that "don't talk to strangers" is a necessary thing to
> tell to children, but I should be able to do a little more fine-grained
> sorting by now.  I've never had a bad experience with someone I've sized
> up as being ok to talk to, and I've had some pretty interesting times.

Replying to this on grrltalk, since my response is way off-topic for the
lesson. Just giving people a heads-up if they're interested.

-Mary

From mary@home.puzzling.org  Fri Apr 13 23:47:51 2007
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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:47:31 +1000
From: Mary Gardiner <mary@puzzling.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On Fri, Apr 13, 2007, Carla Schroder wrote:
> I'm bailing out of town for the weekend and don't have time to write an 
> ordinary lesson, so how about everyone share their favorite comebacks and 
> responses for those uncomfortable, annoying, enraging, and so forth 
> occasions? Have fun and I'll see you Monday!

My favourite has been taken offline, sadly.

Backstory: there used to be a blogger called "Cancer, Baby" at
http://cancerbaby.typepad.com/ writing about her battle with ovarian
cancer. She died from her disease in mid-2006, and the blog was taken
down by her family and friends at her request.

Anyway, she had a pretty famous post about those men who walk up to
unknown women (this is usually a men to women pattern) on the street and
say something like "you look so sad! smile! it's not that bad!"

She objected to this because:
 - it assumes that nothing a woman could undergo could be bad enough for
   *frowning*
 - the man saying this is asking a strange woman to change her
   appearance at his whim. Marching up to strangers and commenting on and
   demanding changes in their appearance is regarded as rude, when it's
   not cloaked under "the world is a happy place!"

Anyway, shortly after she learned that her cancer had recurred, and that
she would have to give up on her plans to adopt children with her
husband and that she was probably going to die within 12 months, someone
walked up to her and said "you look so sad! smile! it's not that bad!"

And she said to him something like "actually, I'm dying of cancer, and
your shiny bald pate and appalling halitosis aren't helping me along the
way either."

OK, it's a comeback with limited usefulness, but good nonetheless.

-Mary

From gubydala@his.com  Mon Apr 16 04:16:54 2007
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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:16:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
From: "Sheryl" <gubydala@his.com>
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Mary Gardiner wrote:

> Anyway, she had a pretty famous post about those men who walk up to
> unknown women (this is usually a men to women pattern) on the street an=
d
> say something like "you look so sad! smile! it's not that bad!"

I hate those guys!

> She objected to this because:
>  - it assumes that nothing a woman could undergo could be bad enough fo=
r
>    *frowning*
>  - the man saying this is asking a strange woman to change her
>    appearance at his whim. Marching up to strangers and commenting on a=
nd
>    demanding changes in their appearance is regarded as rude, when it's
>    not cloaked under "the world is a happy place!"

I think it goes deeper than that.  I think that a lot of men are under th=
e
impression that women owe them certain "comforts" and that looking pretty
and smiling is one of them.  The woman as "public utility" instead of
fully human and having an existence independent from men.

I get the "smile, honey" assault a lot.  My mouth turns down a little in
repose, a combination of genetics and drooping from age.  After some
experimentation with verbal responses, I decided that a withering look
worked the best for me.  The guy is always looking back as he walks,
waiting for the smile.  I not only don't give it to him, I lock eyes on
him and give him my best "psycho killer" blinkless stare.  Actually had
one "can't be that bad" guy kind of shudder, say, "or maybe it can", brea=
k
the gaze and move on faster.

Sheryl


From isabelle.hurbain@pasithee.fr  Sat Apr 14 10:18:08 2007
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From: Isabelle Hurbain <isabelle.hurbain@pasithee.fr>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts
        For All Occassion]
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Le Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:04:01 -0700,
Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> a =C3=A9crit :

> I'm bailing out of town for the weekend and don't have time to write
> an ordinary lesson, so how about everyone share their favorite
> comebacks and responses for those uncomfortable, annoying, enraging,
> and so forth occasions? Have fun and I'll see you Monday!

I'm quite large (well, let's face it overweight) and I was once wanting
to try on clothes... The line was long, so I put myself in it and wait.
Finally my turn arrives, the girl at the entry of the rooms looks at
me :
"You know, pregnant woman have priority on our lines!
- No but...
- You really shoulda asked!
- Listen... I'm NOT pregnant. I'm just fat."

Being called a pregnant woman when you're not is not something you
crave for. But the look of this woman's face... priceless :))) "Oh
sorry, very sorry..." yeah yeah.

How to transform a quite humiliating situation in a fondly remembered
one...

Isa

From amk.sorsa@gmail.com  Sat Apr 14 15:38:21 2007
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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:38:01 +0300
From: "Anne Sorsa" <amk.sorsa@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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2007/4/14, Isabelle Hurbain <isabelle.hurbain@pasithee.fr>:
>
>
>
> I'm quite large (well, let's face it overweight) and I was once wanting
> to try on clothes... The line was long, so I put myself in it and wait.
> Finally my turn arrives, the girl at the entry of the rooms looks at
> me :
> "You know, pregnant woman have priority on our lines!
> - No but...
> - You really shoulda asked!
> - Listen... I'm NOT pregnant. I'm just fat."


Once when I was in a  pharmacy one elderly lady (she was about 80 years)
said to me, that I should take her seat because she believe that I am
pregnant." You should sit in your condition" she said It was so
embarrassing, but I couldn't tell her that she was wrong. Why? Just because
she was trying to be polite. Anyway this incident made me think that there
was something what I wasn't noticed in me.

Well, to me it was easier to say thank you and hope that I could just
vanish... My grandmother has teach that I should always respect elderly
people.


Anne
-- 
*****************************************************
Life doesn't move as fast as we think.
The world is better if we don't know everything.
*****************************************************

From gayathri.swa@gmail.com  Sat Apr 14 16:52:03 2007
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From: "Gayathri Swaminathan" <gayathri.swa@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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Has anyone heard stereotypes such as these:

"Come on girls! you can do it" <---in an all men team with three or four
women or,

"I will see your girls later"<---when a few men and some gals are conversing
on general topics

"She dint take her happy pills"<--when dealing with a tough female manager

Is being a girl equated in these instances to being less strong, talkative
and needing pills to be happy?!

I have sometimes equated this to poor humor or just unhealthy remarks..but
its hard to miss the stereotypes

Gayathri

From rudy@edsons.demon.nl  Sun Apr 15 01:45:44 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts
        For All Occassion]
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Gayathri Swaminathan wrote:
> Has anyone heard stereotypes such as these:
>
> "Come on girls! you can do it" <---in an all men team with three or four
> women or,
>
> "I will see your girls later"<---when a few men and some gals are 
> conversing
> on general topics
>
> "She dint take her happy pills"<--when dealing with a tough female 
> manager

I've heard variants on this applied to male managers as well. Have no 
clue whether its applied to female managers more often. Possibly, 
because tough management goes against some stereotype expected female 
behavior. The "be nice" expectation in this case, which in my mind is 
ridiculous, especially when applied to a female manager. From my point 
of view, a (wo)man who adheres to the "be nice" prototype, should never 
be a manager. And yes, some man have that problem as well. A different 
way to describe it is "what would the neighbors think of this?
>
> Is being a girl equated in these instances to being less strong, 
> talkative
> and needing pills to be happy?!
If the first example is from sports, its actually biological truth... 
Generally speaking (exceptions always present) females are physically 
less strong than males. On talkative, i actually do not know who is more 
talkative. males or females. I strongly think the difference is not that 
big. To me the difference seems to be more in the subject matter of the 
"discussion". And in both cases, some topics are preferred with no 
member of the other sex around.

Cheers,

Rudy

>
> I have sometimes equated this to poor humor or just unhealthy 
> remarks..but
> its hard to miss the stereotypes
>
> Gayathri
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>


From gayathri.swa@gmail.com  Sun Apr 15 18:35:49 2007
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From: "Gayathri Swaminathan" <gayathri.swa@gmail.com>
To: "Rudy Zijlstra" <rudy@edsons.demon.nl>
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        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On 4/14/07, Rudy Zijlstra <rudy@edsons.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> > "She dint take her happy pills"<--when dealing with a tough female
> > manager
>
> I've heard variants on this applied to male managers as well. Have no
> clue whether its applied to female managers more often. Possibly,
> because tough management goes against some stereotype expected female
> behavior. The "be nice" expectation in this case, which in my mind is
> ridiculous, especially when applied to a female manager. From my point
> of view, a (wo)man who adheres to the "be nice" prototype, should never
> be a manager. And yes, some man have that problem as well. A different
> way to describe it is "what would the neighbors think of this?
> >


I think most instances I have heard this retort involved a female manager.
But  certainly agree with you on the fact that "be nice" prototypes ( both
male/female) cannot be good managers. However, what does one reply to such
unhealthy comments? The idea is not challenge the comment itself but, to let
them they are  treating the situation in an unprofessional manner.

> Is being a girl equated in these instances to being less strong,
> > talkative
> > and needing pills to be happy?!
> If the first example is from sports, its actually biological truth...
> Generally speaking (exceptions always present) females are physically
> less strong than males. On talkative, i actually do not know who is more
> talkative. males or females. I strongly think the difference is not that
> big. To me the difference seems to be more in the subject matter of the
> "discussion". And in both cases, some topics are preferred with no
> member of the other sex around.


Agree here again there are physical differences between strengths of men and
women, but yet again hate the general assumption mode. Feel that there can
be a mode of discussion. Perhaps ask the people involved, Can you do this?
Do you think as a team we can do this? rather than rubbing ointment on the
fact the females are somewhat physically less capable than males...( coz
there are sometimes exceptions here as well)

>
> > I have sometimes equated this to poor humor or just unhealthy
> > remarks..but
> > its hard to miss the stereotypes
> >


It is also true that women are considered talkative generally. But is that
bad? Being social and sharing all sorts of ideas with peers only strengthens
your perspectives ( through criticism, argument or enforcement)..But *sigh*
we do not live in Utopia either.

It is true that in all jobs heavily gender biased, there are some challenges
to encounter for being the opposite sex ( For example: a male performer in
the arts or a female construction worker ) But anymore does it really
matter? If the capacity is matched to fit the job, does being of either
gender really matter? Enforcing stereotypes only grinds the constant
patience the involved person maintains and eventually transforms nice to
rude.

--
Gayathri

From rudy@grumpydevil.homelinux.org  Sun Apr 15 20:25:27 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts
        For All Occassion]
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Gayathri Swaminathan wrote:
> On 4/14/07, Rudy Zijlstra <rudy@edsons.demon.nl> wrote:
>>
>> > "She dint take her happy pills"<--when dealing with a tough female
>> > manager
>>
>> I've heard variants on this applied to male managers as well. Have no
>> clue whether its applied to female managers more often. Possibly,
>> because tough management goes against some stereotype expected female
>> behavior. The "be nice" expectation in this case, which in my mind is
>> ridiculous, especially when applied to a female manager. From my point
>> of view, a (wo)man who adheres to the "be nice" prototype, should never
>> be a manager. And yes, some man have that problem as well. A different
>> way to describe it is "what would the neighbors think of this?
>> >
>
>
> I think most instances I have heard this retort involved a female 
> manager.
> But  certainly agree with you on the fact that "be nice" prototypes ( 
> both
> male/female) cannot be good managers. However, what does one reply to 
> such
> unhealthy comments? The idea is not challenge the comment itself but, 
> to let
> them they are  treating the situation in an unprofessional manner.

its had me thinking. Big problem is that the "happy pills" or other such 
is never or rarely made into the face of the manager.. At least i've 
always noted them afterwards. And i have the feeling its usually made by 
someone who just got a job to do he/she did not like.

There are some female managers around in my job situation, no experience 
with how they deal with it though. Its a mostly male organization though 
with about 5 - 10% female (rough estimate).
>
>> Is being a girl equated in these instances to being less strong,
>> > talkative
>> > and needing pills to be happy?!
>> If the first example is from sports, its actually biological truth...
>> Generally speaking (exceptions always present) females are physically
>> less strong than males. On talkative, i actually do not know who is more
>> talkative. males or females. I strongly think the difference is not that
>> big. To me the difference seems to be more in the subject matter of the
>> "discussion". And in both cases, some topics are preferred with no
>> member of the other sex around.
>
>
> Agree here again there are physical differences between strengths of 
> men and
> women, but yet again hate the general assumption mode. Feel that there 
> can
> be a mode of discussion. Perhaps ask the people involved, Can you do 
> this?
> Do you think as a team we can do this? rather than rubbing ointment on 
> the
> fact the females are somewhat physically less capable than males...( coz
> there are sometimes exceptions here as well)
>
Clearly.. Anyone (male or female) who is only partially tranined will 
kick me off a tennis court in record time... And i like watching that 
game and have tried playing it.

It reminds me of role-models and expectations. Its not only the females 
that are fighting the role-models they have been grown up with.
The example i've seen of the "can you carry that". Personally my 
assumption is that if somebody starts lifting something as part of 
his/her job, she/he will ask for assistance where/when needed. Until 
then i continue with what i am doing. Point though is that a male role 
model is to be "helpfull" to the "weaker" gender. Part of the "holding 
door open" and such.



>>
>> > I have sometimes equated this to poor humor or just unhealthy
>> > remarks..but
>> > its hard to miss the stereotypes
>> >
>
>
> It is also true that women are considered talkative generally. But is 
> that
> bad? Being social and sharing all sorts of ideas with peers only 
> strengthens
> your perspectives ( through criticism, argument or enforcement)..But 
> *sigh*
> we do not live in Utopia either.
>

I fully agree with you on the sharing. Wish that were more possible.

Have you ever tried working in an all female environment? Although i 
haven't, a friend of mine has been in a situation where he was one of 
the few males in an otherwise all female workstaff (factory). You get 
some interesting stories. You can usually forget about sharing ideas in 
that situation though. There has been some research as to why that 
fails, and i have not yet read a good explanation.

The interesting/sad thing is that what works between female friends, 
does not scale into a all female work environment. Big pity.

You get the best work environments when its a mixed environment, 
preferably with neither gender clearly in the minority.

> It is true that in all jobs heavily gender biased, there are some 
> challenges
> to encounter for being the opposite sex ( For example: a male 
> performer in
> the arts or a female construction worker ) But anymore does it really
> matter? If the capacity is matched to fit the job, does being of either
> gender really matter? Enforcing stereotypes only grinds the constant
> patience the involved person maintains and eventually transforms nice to
> rude.

Yup, it does. and can lead to big explosions of anger.

Rudy

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun Apr 15 21:13:20 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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> On 4/14/07, Rudy Zijlstra <rudy@edsons.demon.nl> wrote:
>>
>> > "She dint take her happy pills"<--when dealing with a tough female
>> > manager
<snip>
Gayathri Swaminathan wrote:
> The idea is not challenge the comment itself but, to
> let
> them they are  treating the situation in an unprofessional manner.
>

Yes indeed. Do let's sticking to figuring out tactics for dealing with
situations, and not get derailed into the whys and wherefores of such
behavior. Because those things don't matter. What matters is learning how
to deal with these things. Ideas, anyone? What do you do when one of your
co-workers, or someone you supervise, makes snippy comments and gives you
a hard time? How do you decide when to challenge them, and when to feign
deafness? I had a boss once years ago, when I was a typical obnoxious
teenager, who reward mouthiness with the most unpleasant jobs. In that
circumstance, that pretty much spoke for itself, and was quite effective
with attitude readjustment. :)

Would it work to reply with "doing your job makes me happier than any pil=
ls."

Or how about "is there a problem" or "do you have something to say to me?=
"

Carla



From gayathri.swa@gmail.com  Mon Apr 16 01:30:55 2007
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From: "Gayathri Swaminathan" <gayathri.swa@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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I think all these responses work to continue anymore discussion but for "is
there a problem".

That one ends up generating more information on why this person does not
like the other person

Also like Akkana mentions, a witty remark lightens the atmosphere..now does
that make someone think further is a deeper subject.

I like Jacinta's standard responses, makes the person re-think what they
said.

Wonder what would happen if a frank/serious tone is applied. For example,

"I do not think that you are talking in a professional manner. This only
promotes gossip and reflects bad on our <department/team>. I do not think I
want to carry on this conversation with you"

Would that be rude? and would I get labeled differently for my social
skills?


On 4/15/07, carla@bratgrrl.com <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
>
> Would it work to reply with "doing your job makes me happier than any
> pills."
>
> Or how about "is there a problem" or "do you have something to say to me?"
>
> Carla
>
>


-- 
Gayathri Swaminathan

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From: "Valerie Henson" <val.henson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On 4/13/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
> I'm bailing out of town for the weekend and don't have time to write an
> ordinary lesson, so how about everyone share their favorite comebacks and
> responses for those uncomfortable, annoying, enraging, and so forth
> occasions? Have fun and I'll see you Monday!

I'm on the pro-snappy comeback side.  You can really change someone's
opinions with a well thought out comment.  This isn't about making
someone feel bad, it's about giving them an "OH... Now I get it and I
will never ever forget it" moment.

The one I've had to practice the most goes like so:

Some guy at a conference asks, "Are you a developer?"  Or, "Are you
REALLY a developer?"  Occasionally followed by a suspicious look and
"Well, what did you write?"  Turns out "Yes!" is not a good enough
answer.  Here's the response that took me a few minutes of research on
Google and about an hour of practice:

"Yes, I'm a kernel developer.  I maintained a sub-architecture of
PowerPC, the tulip, yellowfin, and roadrunner network drivers, had
patches accepted to mainline in TCP/IP, ext2, and VFS, and was one of
the key designers of ZFS."

Although, after I wrote the Kernel Hacker's Bookshelf series for Linux
Weekly News, I get, "I really like your LWN articles," *scurry away in
fear* more often now. :)

This kind of comeback is closely related to your "elevator pitch" -
what you tell someone about yourself if you have only 60 seconds to
make an impression.  It's worth developing, even if you don't go to
conferences.

-VAL

From akkana@shallowsky.com  Sun Apr 15 22:58:24 2007
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From: Akkana Peck <akkana@shallowsky.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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Valerie Henson writes:
> I'm on the pro-snappy comeback side.  You can really change someone's
> opinions with a well thought out comment.  This isn't about making

Late to the party, but I'm also on the pro-snappy-comeback side.
There are times when a snappy comeback serves only to humiliate
someone, but there are more times when it might make people laugh,
then think.

This is especially true if there are other people around. A simple
logical or angry response won't help change anyone's mind, while
a witty riposte that makes people laugh makes people pay attention
and maybe take what you're saying more seriously.

That's in theory. In practice, of course, I never think of one in time.

-- 
    ...Akkana
    "Beginning GIMP: From Novice to Professional": http://gimpbook.com

From erinn@debian.org  Sun Apr 15 02:41:11 2007
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From: Erinn Clark <erinn@debian.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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* Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> [2007:04:13 16:04 -0700]: 
> I'm bailing out of town for the weekend and don't have time to write an 
> ordinary lesson, so how about everyone share their favorite comebacks and 
> responses for those uncomfortable, annoying, enraging, and so forth 
> occasions? Have fun and I'll see you Monday!

Just yesterday my sysadmin and I were talking and he kept, well,
glancing at my boobs. So I finally said:

"If you don't stop looking at my chest, I am going to break your neck."

This was incredibly useful, but if you're not prone to making
hilariously violent threats, it may be of limited usefulness. The other
bonus was that there were other people around, so he felt more
humiliated than he normally would have.

I know I've got more -- I'll have to think on it...

-- 
off the chain like a rebellious guanine nucleotide

From docnielsen@gmail.com  Sun Apr 15 04:54:02 2007
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Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 06:46:26 +0200
From: "Doc Nielsen" <docnielsen@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On 4/15/07, Erinn Clark <erinn@debian.org> wrote:
> Just yesterday my sysadmin and I were talking and he kept, well,
> glancing at my boobs. So I finally said:
>
> "If you don't stop looking at my chest, I am going to break your neck."

I have yet to find out why we men can't stop staring at cleavage, but
i have often cought my self doing it, and then cursed at myself.

My usual excuse is "I was just admiring your
necklace/sweater/whatever, and how well it goes with your eyes.
*flirting smile*"
That usually gets me a smile back, or perhaps a thank-you for the compliment.

Yes, i admit it, i do stare when cleavage stares at me, but i also do
feel bad about it, and look away as soon as i realize im doing it.

I usually try to use a comeback that either defuses the situation, or
in rare cases shifts blame towards someone or something else.

-Doc
-- 
No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced

From myriam@pharma-traduction.ch  Sun Apr 15 09:03:58 2007
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From: Myriam Schweingruber <myriam@pharma-traduction.ch>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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Le dimanche, 15. avril 2007, Doc Nielsen a =E9crit=A0:
> On 4/15/07, Erinn Clark <erinn@debian.org> wrote:
> > Just yesterday my sysadmin and I were talking and he kept, well,
> > glancing at my boobs. So I finally said:
> >
> > "If you don't stop looking at my chest, I am going to break your
> > neck."
>
> I have yet to find out why we men can't stop staring at cleavage,
> but i have often cought my self doing it, and then cursed at
> myself.

Concentrate to look at her eyes!

> My usual excuse is "I was just admiring your
> necklace/sweater/whatever, and how well it goes with your eyes.
> *flirting smile*"
> That usually gets me a smile back, or perhaps a thank-you for the
> compliment.

Well not from me, you might as well got a far less polite reply.

> Yes, i admit it, i do stare when cleavage stares at me, but i also
> do feel bad about it, and look away as soon as i realize im doing
> it.

A male friend of mine never stares at breasts (it was very surpising=20
in this almost all male gathering) and I once asked him why not: he=20
told me his mother (who by the way had big ones too) always asked him=20
the colour of the eyes of the woman he had been staring at. So he got=20
used to concentrate on eye colour and (almost) never stares at=20
breasts.

Hope this helps :-)

Greets, Myriam
=2D-=20
Protect your freedom, join the Fellowship of FSFE!
http://www.fsfe.org
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--nextPart12529247.QE8sJN1xr4--

From rudy@edsons.demon.nl  Sun Apr 15 09:21:43 2007
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        For All Occassion]
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Myriam Schweingruber wrote:
> Le dimanche, 15. avril 2007, Doc Nielsen a =E9crit :
>  =20
>> On 4/15/07, Erinn Clark <erinn@debian.org> wrote:
>>    =20
>>> Just yesterday my sysadmin and I were talking and he kept, well,
>>> glancing at my boobs. So I finally said:
>>>
>>> "If you don't stop looking at my chest, I am going to break your
>>> neck."
>>>      =20
>> I have yet to find out why we men can't stop staring at cleavage,
>> but i have often cought my self doing it, and then cursed at
>> myself.
>>    =20
>
> Concentrate to look at her eyes!
>  =20
Thanks for that one.

I have to concur to the wonder though. I do not like big ones, yet they=20
do draw attention, mine included... And i have no clue as to why.
>  =20
>> My usual excuse is "I was just admiring your
>> necklace/sweater/whatever, and how well it goes with your eyes.
>> *flirting smile*"
>> That usually gets me a smile back, or perhaps a thank-you for the
>> compliment.
>>    =20
>
> Well not from me, you might as well got a far less polite reply.
>
>  =20
>> Yes, i admit it, i do stare when cleavage stares at me, but i also
>> do feel bad about it, and look away as soon as i realize im doing
>> it.
>>    =20
>
> A male friend of mine never stares at breasts (it was very surpising=20
> in this almost all male gathering) and I once asked him why not: he=20
> told me his mother (who by the way had big ones too) always asked him=20
> the colour of the eyes of the woman he had been staring at. So he got=20
> used to concentrate on eye colour and (almost) never stares at=20
> breasts.
>
> Hope this helps :-)
>
> Greets, Myriam
>  =20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>  =20


From amandaangell@spin.net.au  Sun Apr 15 10:57:45 2007
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From: Amanda Angell <amandaangell@spin.net.au>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        =?iso-8859-1?q?=09lesson_3=3A_101_Satisfying_Retorts_For_All?=
        Occassion]
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:27:21 +0930
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        <200704151050.16885.myriam@pharma-traduction.ch>
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On Sunday 15 April 2007 7:04 pm, Rudy Zijlstra wrote:
> I have to concur to the wonder though. I do not like big ones, yet they
> do draw attention, mine included... And i have no clue as to why.

My husband and I were discussing a similar thing today about instinct and how 
it still rules our lives partly even though it's not really required anymore. 
I'm assuming that breast size (along with hips/butt) was a sign of a healthy 
female that would be more likely to carry a baby to full-term and bare it 
without dying in the process. All natural there - although completely 
unnecessary these days. I wouldn't feel bad about doing what comes 
naturally - but fortunately we have the brain power to recognise our actions 
and thoughts for what they are and make the decision of how to act on them.

I've always considered myself quite lucky for having small breasts for other 
reasons such as underwire bra's, back pain, comfort and such.. but not until 
reading this thread did I think that I'm doubly lucky for not having to be 
ogled by anyone, too!

Amanda.

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun Apr 15 15:51:52 2007
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References: <200704131604.01742.carla@bratgrrl.com>
        <20070415020511.GA26577@erinn.org>
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        <4621F1AB.9050807@edsons.demon.nl>
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:51:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
From: carla@bratgrrl.com
To: courses@linuxchix.org
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> Myriam Schweingruber wrote:
>> Le dimanche, 15. avril 2007, Doc Nielsen a =E9crit :
>>
>>> On 4/15/07, Erinn Clark <erinn@debian.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just yesterday my sysadmin and I were talking and he kept, well,
>>>> glancing at my boobs. So I finally said:
>>>>
>>>> "If you don't stop looking at my chest, I am going to break your
>>>> neck."
>>>>
>>> I have yet to find out why we men can't stop staring at cleavage,
>>> but i have often cought my self doing it, and then cursed at
>>> myself.
>>>
>>
>> Concentrate to look at her eyes!
>>
> Thanks for that one.
>
> I have to concur to the wonder though. I do not like big ones, yet they
> do draw attention, mine included... And i have no clue as to why.
>

This particular issue is one that I am impatient and unforgiving with. Fo=
r
[deity of your choice's] sake WTF is so hard about maintaining eye
contact? When credible threats of physical harm are necessary to make an
impression, something is way wrong. Who cares why? I don't care why. I've
heard all the excuses. It's no secret that drooling over body parts,
especially in a professional environment, is an unprofessional,
disrespectful, hostile behavior. So don't do it. Easy peasey, simple as
can be.

I haven't worked in a corporate environment in years, so I'm probably
behind the times here. If you're not comfortable saying something like
what Erinn said, how do these sound:

"Get out of my office. I do not speak to people who stare at my breasts."

"Yes, I have breasts. Is it going to take a talk with human resources to
remind you that I also have eyes?"

Or butt, crotch, whatever the situation is. The idea is to confront it
directly and leave no doubt that you are dead serious and it must stop.

I think it's shameful that people even have to be told these things. But
that's the real world, and we have to deal with it. In fact, that could b=
e
the official motto of this course- 'that's the real world, and we have to
deal with it.'

--
Carla, still happy with hotel wireless





From rudy@edsons.demon.nl  Sun Apr 15 16:34:28 2007
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Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:47:25 +0200
From: Rudy Zijlstra <rudy@edsons.demon.nl>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts
        For All Occassion]
References: <200704131604.01742.carla@bratgrrl.com>     <20070415020511.GA26577@erinn.org>      <78e398b30704142146s56d5fe86s8328f5a89da7da9e@mail.gmail.com>   <200704151050.16885.myriam@pharma-traduction.ch>        <4621F1AB.9050807@edsons.demon.nl>
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carla@bratgrrl.com wrote:
>> Myriam Schweingruber wrote:
>>    =20
>>> Le dimanche, 15. avril 2007, Doc Nielsen a =E9crit :
>>>
>>>      =20
>>>> On 4/15/07, Erinn Clark <erinn@debian.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        =20
>>>>> Just yesterday my sysadmin and I were talking and he kept, well,
>>>>> glancing at my boobs. So I finally said:
>>>>>
>>>>> "If you don't stop looking at my chest, I am going to break your
>>>>> neck."
>>>>>
>>>>>          =20
>>>> I have yet to find out why we men can't stop staring at cleavage,
>>>> but i have often cought my self doing it, and then cursed at
>>>> myself.
>>>>
>>>>        =20
>>> Concentrate to look at her eyes!
>>>
>>>      =20
>> Thanks for that one.
>>
>> I have to concur to the wonder though. I do not like big ones, yet the=
y
>> do draw attention, mine included... And i have no clue as to why.
>>
>>    =20
>
> This particular issue is one that I am impatient and unforgiving with. =
For
> [deity of your choice's] sake WTF is so hard about maintaining eye
> contact? When credible threats of physical harm are necessary to make a=
n
> impression, something is way wrong. Who cares why? I don't care why. I'=
ve
> heard all the excuses. It's no secret that drooling over body parts,
> especially in a professional environment, is an unprofessional,
> disrespectful, hostile behavior. So don't do it. Easy peasey, simple as
> can be.
>  =20
For the record:
There is a difference between noting with yourself that attention is=20
drawn and actually staring....

Its also honest to admit to the fact that attention is drawn.

If you want a clothing discussion, i am willing to play devils advocate ;=
-)

> I haven't worked in a corporate environment in years, so I'm probably
> behind the times here. If you're not comfortable saying something like
> what Erinn said, how do these sound:
>
> "Get out of my office. I do not speak to people who stare at my breasts=
."
>
> "Yes, I have breasts. Is it going to take a talk with human resources t=
o
> remind you that I also have eyes?"
>
> Or butt, crotch, whatever the situation is. The idea is to confront it
> directly and leave no doubt that you are dead serious and it must stop.
>
> I think it's shameful that people even have to be told these things. Bu=
t
> that's the real world, and we have to deal with it. In fact, that could=
 be
> the official motto of this course- 'that's the real world, and we have =
to
> deal with it.'
>
> --
> Carla, still happy with hotel wireless
>
>
>  =20


From gubydala@his.com  Mon Apr 16 03:02:49 2007
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Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:02:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
From: "Sheryl" <gubydala@his.com>
To: "Erinn Clark" <erinn@debian.org>
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Erinn Clark wrote:
>
> Just yesterday my sysadmin and I were talking and he kept, well,
> glancing at my boobs. So I finally said:
>
> "If you don't stop looking at my chest, I am going to break your neck."

LOL.  I used to use "If you do X, I'm gonna to have to hurt you" as the
occasional general not-too-serious threat (it's a common expression where
I come from).  On one occasion a young male coworker retorted, "OK hurt
me.  I dare you." or something to that effect.  First thing I could come
up with quickly was something like, "You have big ears and your momma
dresses you funny."   He looked a little surprised, and stalked off.  A
female coworker about my age said, "Be careful saying that kind of thing
around [his name], he's into that sort of thing." (meaning S&M).

I didn't ask how she knew.

Sheryl

From maria@shadlen.org  Mon Apr 16 08:17:07 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts
        For All Occassion]
References: <200704131604.01742.carla@bratgrrl.com>     <20070415020511.GA26577@erinn.org>
        <1826.208.58.79.14.1176692550.squirrel@mail.his.com>
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Sheryl wrote:
> Erinn Clark wrote:
>> Just yesterday my sysadmin and I were talking and he kept, well,
>> glancing at my boobs. So I finally said:
>>
>> "If you don't stop looking at my chest, I am going to break your neck."
> 
> LOL.  I used to use "If you do X, I'm gonna to have to hurt you" as the
> occasional general not-too-serious threat (it's a common expression where
> I come from).  On one occasion a young male coworker retorted, "OK hurt
> me.  I dare you." or something to that effect.  First thing I could come
> up with quickly was something like, "You have big ears and your momma
> dresses you funny."   

That was great. I use to be able to come up with stuff like that off the 
cuff, but my wit seems dimmer than it use to be...

He looked a little surprised, and stalked off.  A
> female coworker about my age said, "Be careful saying that kind of thing
> around [his name], he's into that sort of thing." (meaning S&M).
> 
> I didn't ask how she knew.

Giving her the benefit (I guess depending on your perspective it may not 
be a benefit! ;-)) of the doubt, it could be just the same way you found 
out...

Hmmm, hope that didn't come out to cryptic.

cheers,
maria

> 
> Sheryl
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
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From gdziengel@gmail.com  Sun Apr 15 02:06:02 2007
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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:05:44 -0500
From: "Gretchen Dziengel" <gdziengel@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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My favorite comeback:

Are you saying.......?

Examples:
Are you saying you don't think I can finish this project?
Are you saying you don't think I can move that? (usually in reference
to a heavy monitor or box)
Are you saying I look crabby today?

While most people aren't afraid to make snide remarks, very few of
them are willing to come out and say to my face that they think I am
doing a bad job or that they think I can't do it.  For the few that do
say something, I follow up with a frosty "Why?"  If they continue to
be an asshole about the issue, I'll finish up with "I'm sorry you feel
that way." and proceed to ignore them.

I haven't used this in online confrontations, I've quickly discovered
that changing anyone's mind through e-mail or forum discussion is
futile.

Gretchen

From syleniel@gmail.com  Mon Apr 16 16:46:07 2007
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From: "Tracey C" <grrliegeek@elenari.net>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On 4/14/07, Gretchen Dziengel <gdziengel@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My favorite comeback:
>
> Are you saying.......?
>
> Examples:
> Are you saying you don't think I can finish this project?
> Are you saying you don't think I can move that? (usually in reference
> to a heavy monitor or box)
> Are you saying I look crabby today?
>

These are excellent comebacks if you don't necessarily want to cut someone
down in return. They remind me of advice I heard listening to the audio book
"The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense" that was recommended for this
course. The idea is that you're responding to a presupposed part of the
person's words that they haven't come out and said. This kind of response
frames the talk about the presupposed idea rather than the "bait" or insult
in their surface words. Here's another example from my own experience:

When a guy offers to help me carry / lift something and I don't want help:
"Are you saying I can't handle this?" (That usually gets a response along
the lines of "I'm sorry. I was trying to help. If you don't want my help,
OK")

When someone treats me as if I probably don't know anything about computers
"Are you saying you think I don't know anything about computers?"
Depending on how I'm feeling I might add something like "I've got an
Associates Degree and will raise you a Bachelors in December. What you got?"
(gambling reference for those who might not get the slang)

And then there are days where I am feeling snarky, like the day that a
newbie tech at the helpdesk started to tell me the steps to add someone to
my GAIM instant message buddy list. I said "Gee, because of course I've
NEVER added anyone to instant messenger before. Wow, thanks!" I felt that
because he was new to our desk, whereas I had been working here for over 2
years, that for him to assume he had to instruct me was insulting.

-- 

Tracey C

From jarich@perltraining.com.au  Mon Apr 16 00:39:53 2007
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        For All Occassion]
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Carla Schroder wrote:
> I'm bailing out of town for the weekend and don't have time to write an 
> ordinary lesson, so how about everyone share their favorite comebacks and 
> responses for those uncomfortable, annoying, enraging, and so forth 
> occasions? Have fun and I'll see you Monday!

My favourites:

        "Grow up!"            (single person)
        "Now, now, children"  (group)
        "I don't need your permission/approval to..."

They're so versatile, and most of the time the people I'm speaking to end up 
feeling foolish rather than hurt or angry.  I usually have to add something to 
the end of course, but that's situation dependant:

        "I don't need your permission to excel".
        "Grow up.  You've had years to learn the world doesn't revolve around
         you"
        "Now, now children; try to act like the adults you might one day be"

Sometimes these backfire and the situation gets worse.  But usually I've made my 
point by then, so I'm happy to walk away.

Most of the time, I don't actually say anything.  I try to focus my actions on 
goal-oriented behaviour.  This means thinking - at least briefly - about how any 
interaction I might partake in will further my goals.  No matter how much the 
other person's behaviour might suck, if it's more useful for me to stay on good 
terms with them than to indulge my urges and give them a verbal boot up the 
arse, then I'll grit my teeth and walk away.  (To an extent of course, as there 
are often things you can still safely say..)

On the other hand, if they're relative strangers, or people I don't need to be 
on good terms with, then I'm more than happy to tell them what I think of their 
behaviour.

All the best,

        Jacinta

From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Mon Apr 16 07:33:40 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 04:04:01PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> I'm bailing out of town for the weekend and don't have time to write an 
> ordinary lesson, so how about everyone share their favorite comebacks and 
> responses for those uncomfortable, annoying, enraging, and so forth 
> occasions? Have fun and I'll see you Monday!

Okay, here's one I don't know the answer for: what do you say when a
man, a complete stranger, calls you "darling"?

This happened to me the other day.  I was getting out of a lift, and
this man started getting in, not waiting for me to get out.  He said
something like "Sorry, darling".  I just muttered "Don't call me
darling" as I left, but that didn't make me feel any better.  He wasn't
sorry at all, he was patronizing.  And I was left seething with
frustrated anger.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From raven@oneeyedcrow.net  Mon Apr 16 08:35:02 2007
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From: Raven Alder <raven@oneeyedcrow.net>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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Heya --

* Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org> [2007-04-16
* 17:33:13 +1000]:
> Okay, here's one I don't know the answer for: what do you say when a
> man, a complete stranger, calls you "darling"?  This happened to me
> the other day.  I was getting out of a lift, and this man started
> getting in, not waiting for me to get out.  He said something like
> "Sorry, darling".  I just muttered "Don't call me darling" as I left,
> but that didn't make me feel any better.  He wasn't sorry at all, he
> was patronizing.  And I was left seething with frustrated anger.

        "No problem, honeyboo babycakes sweet potato wumpkin!"

        Overly cloying or dripping sarcastic tone of voice, your choice.
[grin]  Usually only takes one shot of that to get them self-checking
about the careless diminuitives.  (I've had repeat offenders, but they
usually catch themselves at it and make a big effort to apologize.)

Cheers,
Raven, mean queen of the tactical "ittle wuzzums" strike

-- 
@

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From: "Noirin Plunkett" <plunkett@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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I'm *way* late to this one, but since it's not really a regular
lesson, I'll just jump in...

I find that sometimes, guys won't listen to "Grow up", or "Get a life"
- particularly if you say it to them in a conversation that just
involves you two...

I can think of two guys in particular I've had this problem with. One
was a guy I briefly, long ago, dated. Since we broke up (many years
ago), he's always been excessively explicit with me. I didn't like it,
and often told him to grow up... He'd usually clean up his act for a
week or two, and then go back to the same ol' same ol'...

Until recently, when we were attending a two-day OSS conference, at
which I knew he wanted to hook up with one of the speakers... When she
came to the pub, I introduced him to her, saying "Kate, this is Mike.
He's very nice to women he hasn't slept with yet" (names changed to
protect the innocent!)

Suffice to say, it's been two months now, and apart from some serious
whining about how I ruined his chances, he's been an absolute lamb
every since! So sometimes, you need to fight fire with fire, a little
bit =)

The other guy is a fairly bigshot techy guy, who's only in Ireland for
a year or so. I still haven't worked out how to get him to grow up,
not treat women as objects, and stop saying "but it's ok, you're
different", or "no offense! <insert offensive remark>"...

I've told him outright what I think of him - he seems to think it's
"cute". I might have to go the ickle wickle babba route... Ugh =)

Noirin

From ConorDaly@met.ie  Fri Apr 27 08:51:02 2007
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From: Conor Daly <c.daly@met.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For
        All Occassion]
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On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 06:25:25PM +0100 or thereabouts, Noirin Plunkett wrote:
> 
> I find that sometimes, guys won't listen to "Grow up", or "Get a life"
> - particularly if you say it to them in a conversation that just
> involves you two...
> 
> The other guy is a fairly bigshot techy guy, who's only in Ireland for
> a year or so. I still haven't worked out how to get him to grow up,
> not treat women as objects, and stop saying "but it's ok, you're
> different", or "no offense! <insert offensive remark>"...
> 
> I've told him outright what I think of him - he seems to think it's
> "cute".

Have you told him in public?  I'm inclined to think that a rebuke in private
might not be listened to while one in public might, particularly if others back
you up.  However, that does carry the 'need your opinions to be validated by
others' burden...

Conor
-- 
Conor Daly,                   
Met Eireann, Glasnevin Hill,  
Dublin 9, Ireland             
Ph +3531 8064276 Fax +3531 8064247

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From: "Noirin Plunkett" <plunkett@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]
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On 4/27/07, Conor Daly <c.daly@met.ie> wrote:
> Have you told him in public?  I'm inclined to think that a rebuke in private
> might not be listened to while one in public might, particularly if others back
> you up.  However, that does carry the 'need your opinions to be validated by
> others' burden...

I have - unfortunately, I haven't had any backup, any time I've done
this. A lot of people I've spoken too about him are essentially
resigned to the fact that his social skills are less than
non-existent, and see no reason to try and change this, since his
technical skills are top notch.

Noirin

From linda@meridian-ds.com  Fri Apr 27 12:22:32 2007
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Noirin Plunkett wrote:
>
> I have - unfortunately, I haven't had any backup, any time I've done
> this. A lot of people I've spoken too about him are essentially
> resigned to the fact that his social skills are less than
> non-existent, and see no reason to try and change this, since his
> technical skills are top notch.
>
> Noirin
>
And that's a great deal of why IT is so f**ked up.  We (or the powers
that be) have excused horrible behavior because someone has good tech
skills.  Guess what?  People who know how to behave like a human can be
trained to have IT skills.  *Most* assholes are going to remain so, no
matter how many human relations or diversity courses you force them to
attend.

Until we change that basic attitude of excusing, it won't get any better.

LP

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sat Apr 14 18:40:25 2007
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Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]]
From: carla@bratgrrl.com
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AARRGG sorry, I meant to send this to the list. I blame Squirrelmail!! ;)

> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 09:50:58AM +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>> > (b) If one does come up with a satisfyingly scathing retort at the
>> > time, one then feels bad afterwards, for not treating the person lik=
e
>> > a human being, but an object.
>>
>> Snappy comebacks are a weapon. It's true that it's at best mean and at
>> worst rather evil to use weapons on people indescriminately, but I thi=
nk
>> comebacks have a use in situations where another person is treating me
>> as an object. In an ideal world, I wouldn't treat other people like
>> objects, but in situations where they treat me like one, I feel it's
>> important to defend myself against them and break the power they're
>> trying to establish over me.
>
> I guess it depends on whether the person in question is an enemy or
> someone one has to work with.  Whether it is better to parry or wound
> with this weapon.
>

So I'm confused what your point is- do you have some actual suggestions,
or only objections? Are you saying we should accept mistreatment and not
stand up for ourselves?

--
Carla from a nice hotel with painless wireless Internet. w00t!



From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Sat Apr 14 23:33:51 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]]
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On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:40:05PM -0400, carla@bratgrrl.com wrote:
> AARRGG sorry, I meant to send this to the list. I blame Squirrelmail!! ;)

And I just replied privately because it went to me privately!
 
> > On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 09:50:58AM +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote:
> >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> > I guess it depends on whether the person in question is an enemy or
> > someone one has to work with.  Whether it is better to parry or wound
> > with this weapon.
> >
> 
> So I'm confused what your point is- do you have some actual suggestions,
> or only objections? Are you saying we should accept mistreatment and not
> stand up for ourselves?

Please don't put words into my mouth.  You *know* that that is not what
I am saying.

I am wondering aloud about the purpose of snappy comebacks.  Is it to
make ourselves just as bad as the person who attacked us, is it to grind
their face in the dirt and make us powerful with cruelty?  If so, I find
it dubious.
If their purpose is to make the other person think twice, then that's
another matter.

You want suggestions from me?  Here are a few, which, alas, I have never
been able to put into practice (they're the kind of ones that one thinks
up afterwards).

When someone calls me "girl", reply by calling them "boy".
When someone calls me "Kathy" (my name is Kathryn, dammit!) then make a
diminutive of their name, and see how they like it.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun Apr 15 05:14:01 2007
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Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 01:13:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living,
        lesson 3: 101 Satisfying Retorts For All Occassion]]
From: carla@bratgrrl.com
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> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:40:05PM -0400, carla@bratgrrl.com wrote:
>> AARRGG sorry, I meant to send this to the list. I blame Squirrelmail!!
>> ;)
>
> And I just replied privately because it went to me privately!
>
>> > On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 09:50:58AM +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote:
>> >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>> > I guess it depends on whether the person in question is an enemy or
>> > someone one has to work with.  Whether it is better to parry or woun=
d
>> > with this weapon.
>> >
>>
>> So I'm confused what your point is- do you have some actual suggestion=
s,
>> or only objections? Are you saying we should accept mistreatment and n=
ot
>> stand up for ourselves?
>
> Please don't put words into my mouth.  You *know* that that is not what
> I am saying.
>
> I am wondering aloud about the purpose of snappy comebacks.  Is it to
> make ourselves just as bad as the person who attacked us, is it to grin=
d
> their face in the dirt and make us powerful with cruelty?  If so, I fin=
d
> it dubious.
> If their purpose is to make the other person think twice, then that's
> another matter.
>
> You want suggestions from me?  Here are a few, which, alas, I have neve=
r
> been able to put into practice (they're the kind of ones that one think=
s
> up afterwards).
>
> When someone calls me "girl", reply by calling them "boy".
> When someone calls me "Kathy" (my name is Kathryn, dammit!) then make a
> diminutive of their name, and see how they like it.
>

I labored long over coming up with the subject line "Satisfying Retorts
For All Occasions." I don't see that there is any implication of cruelty
or slamming people gratuitously. The idea is not to just slam someone for
the fun of it, but to stand up for yourself and let the offending person
know you don't appreciate their speaking to you in that manner. It's not
about being powerful with cruelty, but strong enough in our own
self-respect to not just roll over and let ourselves be pummeled with
thoughtless or malicious crap. About drawing boundaries and communicating
how we want to be treated.

The purpose here is to help people figure out what tools serve their
purposes best. The type of language used, deciding when it's worth
speaking up and when to let it slide- I don't know what's right for other
people. Some are going to be more brusque, some more gentle. That's not m=
y
call. But we can offer each other encouragement, validation, and specific
suggestions- those are all very valuable and helpful.

--
Carla, still gloating over good hotel wireless

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun Apr 22 20:03:35 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
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Subject: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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Lesson 4: Saying No!

There are two circumstances when it is hard to say no: when someone wants you 
to do something icky you don't want to do, and when you are being offered 
great opportunities and you can't possibly take advantage of all of them.

In the first case, it's rather amazing the things that people let themselves 
get roped into. I'm sure we all have our own sets of horror stories.  
Sometimes you feel driven by necessity, like taking paying work that you know 
you won't enjoy, and might even have a bad outcome, but you feel you have to 
because you need the money. It might be something as trivial as choosing what 
movie to watch. Then you don't like the movie, or didn't really want to watch 
a movie, and feel all abused and resentful because you never get to do what 
you want. Maybe your boss is a classic Dilbert case who gives you assignments 
that you really shouldn't be doing, or worse, treats you like the lowliest of 
administrative assistants instead of a skilled professional in your field. 
Maybe you get married and have kids and enter a profession you really don't 
want and live this weird, unsatisfying life because your parents think this 
is what is right for you.

Life is too short to waste.

What do you do about this sort of thing? The first step is taking charge of 
yourself and knowing what you want. That's why we started off with dreams. If 
you passively waft through life, letting other people make your decisions and 
bossing you around, please spare us your complaints! The cool thing about 
being a grownup is you get to make your own decisions. (Unless you live in 
some sort of horrible oppressive culture, which is a subject for another 
day.) 

If you've established a reputation as a pushover, it will take some work to 
break out of that. But it might not be as hard as you think. Just being asked 
to do something is not a command, though some people take it that way. 
Someone asks you to donate money to some cause and you don't want to, don't 
make excuses. Just say no. People have their hands out all the time- you are 
under no obligation. When was the last time someone came to your door to give 
you anything? I bet never. You get asked to volunteer to organize the church 
softball team and you don't want to, just say no. Your significant other asks 
you to do some kinky thing you don't want to, just say no. Anyone who tries 
to pressure you into something you don't want to do is not your friend, and 
why should you be nice to people who are not your friends?

"What's in it for me?" is a good way to evaluate whether or not you will do 
something.

The type of pressure that gripes me the most is "come on, it's good for you!" 
I totally do not care. I will decide what is good for me, thank you very 
much, and the more you push the more I want to push you into a mud puddle. 
Preferably one that has been visited by incontinent livestock.

I know this is often easier said than done. It takes practice and thought. 
What if you get roped into something, and then realize later that you are 
unhappy and really really want out? That's a bit harder, because breaking an 
obligation is something we are trained not to do. But that's a good option- 
they got along fine without you before, and will get along fine without you 
in the future. What would sticking it out to the bitter end gain? Hopefully a 
lasting lesson so you don't do it again. Other than that, what...? In my 
experience, nothing that really benefited me.

====Dealing With Too Many Good Offers====

Val Henson is apparently living the good life, because she asks "How to say no 
to things that are fun, good for you, and just too much to
do?" That's a lot harder. As a starting point, I suggest going back to the 
beginning: what do you really want to do with your life? Out of all these 
kewl offers, which ones will get you where you want to go? What will you gain 
from saying yes? Putting some focus into your life will make a big 
difference.

This can relate to "When Nice = Rude", when people are too "nice" to say no, 
and get over-committed, and end up making messes and letting other people 
down. Even when it's nothing raining nothing but awesomeness, you can't 
capture every raindrop. What are your real motives for making a yes or no 
decision? Do you even know yourself?

Homework: Read the freaking book :)  'When I Say No I Feel Guilty"
Another excellent one is "Women Don't Ask", which addresses the issue of how 
we limit ourselves beyond how other people limit us.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Sun Apr 22 23:59:42 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 01:03:17PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> Homework: Read the freaking book :)  'When I Say No I Feel Guilty"

It *does* take time for international post to arrive from Amazon.  My
copy only arrived today.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

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From: Mary Gardiner <mary@puzzling.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On Mon, Apr 23, 2007, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 01:03:17PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> > Homework: Read the freaking book :)  'When I Say No I Feel Guilty"
> 
> It *does* take time for international post to arrive from Amazon.  My
> copy only arrived today.

Reply about online book shopping for Australians sent to grrltalk, if
anyone is interested.

-Mary

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From: Mary Gardiner <mary@puzzling.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On Mon, Apr 23, 2007, Mary Gardiner wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2007, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 01:03:17PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> > > Homework: Read the freaking book :)  'When I Say No I Feel Guilty"
> > 
> > It *does* take time for international post to arrive from Amazon.  My
> > copy only arrived today.
> 
> Reply about online book shopping for Australians sent to grrltalk, if
> anyone is interested.

Short version: Australians might find it faster and about equally
expensive to order from: http://www.abbeys.com.au/items.asp?id=28173

-Mary

From valoriez@zimres.net  Mon Apr 23 10:14:37 2007
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From: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:29:16 -0700
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On Sunday 22 April 2007 13:03, Carla Schroder wrote:
> Lesson 4: Saying No!

::snip::

> I know this is often easier said than done. It takes practice and thought.
> What if you get roped into something, and then realize later that you are
> unhappy and really really want out? That's a bit harder, because breaking
> an obligation is something we are trained not to do. But that's a good
> option- they got along fine without you before, and will get along fine
> without you in the future. What would sticking it out to the bitter end
> gain? Hopefully a lasting lesson so you don't do it again. Other than that,
> what...? In my experience, nothing that really benefited me.

::snip::

Closely related to this one, is an issue I've had trouble with in the past, 
and I'll bet some of you have, too. You've taken a great job, married a 
wonderful spouse, assumed a rewarding volunteer position. And then time 
passes, or your company is sold, your partner changes in a different 
direction than you are traveling, or the challenge is gone from the position. 
In short, you are burnt out.

I have difficulty recognizing that happening, and gracefully moving 
on. "Bitter end" brings back some bitter memories, which I'm gonna spend some 
time with, because I think learning when to say "enough, goodbye" is just as 
important as saying NO.

Too many of us didn't get a chance to learn to say NO as two year-olds, when 
we are supposed to learn that. So we never progress to I'M DONE. Better late 
to learn both, than never!

Thanks again for doing this course, Carla!

Valorie

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Wed Apr 25 15:38:31 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On Monday 23 April 2007 01:29, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> You've taken a great job, married a
> wonderful spouse, assumed a rewarding volunteer position. And then time
> passes, or your company is sold, your partner changes in a different
> direction than you are traveling, or the challenge is gone from the
> position. In short, you are burnt out.
>
> I have difficulty recognizing that happening, and gracefully moving
> on. "Bitter end" brings back some bitter memories, which I'm gonna spend
> some time with, because I think learning when to say "enough, goodbye" is
> just as important as saying NO.
>
> Too many of us didn't get a chance to learn to say NO as two year-olds,
> when we are supposed to learn that. So we never progress to I'M DONE.
> Better late to learn both, than never!

Amen, sistah! This is a good time to review some of our Basic Human Rights:

The right to say "No!" and not feel guilty
The right to change your mind
The right to do less than you are humanly capable of doing

I suggest that asking yourself "What's in it for me?" is a great tactic for 
getting a good perspective. "What do I want?"

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From strangest@comcast.net  Thu Apr 26 01:54:39 2007
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>
>
> Closely related to this one, is an issue I've had trouble with in the past, 
> and I'll bet some of you have, too. You've taken a great job, married a 
> wonderful spouse, assumed a rewarding volunteer position. And then time 
> passes, or your company is sold, your partner changes in a different 
> direction than you are traveling, or the challenge is gone from the position. 
> In short, you are burnt out.
>   
I'm having trouble with this right now. I didn't exactly quit my 
previous full-time job to go freelance. I kept them on as a client. But 
I have already rewritten all of the infrastructure code, made the entire 
project extensible, threadsafe, object-oriented, scalable, and even gave 
then a brand new web framework, trained the junior people on how to add 
new apps, etc. Now there is only maintenance, and it is boring as hell. 
The CTO convinced me to take a low hourly rate once I switched to 
contracting, because he does not support contracting, but did not want 
to lose me. I did not negotiate because I felt badly about leaving.

Now I feel resentful for taking such a low paying contract, since my 
other, full-time contract is twice the hourly rate of this one. I'm 
having great difficulty encouraging myself to keep them on as a client. 
But I feel badly about completely lobbing them off. The company is not 
doing well, and may fold upon itself soon anyway, so morale sucks. My 
leaving was seen as some weird omen by those who ran out of business 
ideas, and resorted to 'hope' as a business plan. But they keep me 
hanging on. The CEO said he'd let me keep my shares (if they end up 
being worth anything) if I hang around part-time. Plus, for tax reasons, 
it helps tremendously to have more than one client if you freelance. It 
looks more like a credible independent business rather than some dubious 
employment relationship.

Urgh, so, yeah, I do this thing which seems to suck the life blood from 
me right now. But I only do it once a week, so it's no so bad, right? 
Great gods, I hate my overly-optimistic coping mechanism. It really 
hurts me in the end.

>
> Too many of us didn't get a chance to learn to say NO as two year-olds, when 
> we are supposed to learn that. So we never progress to I'M DONE. Better late 
> to learn both, than never!
>   
This seemed profound to me. After reading this, I remembered what saying 
no was like for me as a child. I got beaten, kicked and punched for 
saying no. No wonder I have such a hard time with it now.

This course makes me cringe. That means it's working for me. Thank you 
for doing this.

Gloria


From valoriez@zimres.net  Thu Apr 26 10:43:00 2007
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From: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 03:42:26 -0700
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On Wednesday 25 April 2007 18:54, Gloria W wrote:
> > Closely related to this one, is an issue I've had trouble with in the
> > past, and I'll bet some of you have, too. You've taken a great job,
> > married a wonderful spouse, assumed a rewarding volunteer position. And
> > then time passes, or your company is sold, your partner changes in a
> > different direction than you are traveling, or the challenge is gone from
> > the position. In short, you are burnt out.
>
> I'm having trouble with this right now. I didn't exactly quit my
> previous full-time job to go freelance. I kept them on as a client. But
> I have already rewritten all of the infrastructure code, made the entire
> project extensible, threadsafe, object-oriented, scalable, and even gave
> then a brand new web framework, trained the junior people on how to add
> new apps, etc. Now there is only maintenance, and it is boring as hell.
> The CTO convinced me to take a low hourly rate once I switched to
> contracting, because he does not support contracting, but did not want
> to lose me. I did not negotiate because I felt badly about leaving.
>
> Now I feel resentful for taking such a low paying contract, since my
> other, full-time contract is twice the hourly rate of this one. I'm
> having great difficulty encouraging myself to keep them on as a client.
> But I feel badly about completely lobbing them off. The company is not
> doing well, and may fold upon itself soon anyway, so morale sucks. My
> leaving was seen as some weird omen by those who ran out of business
> ideas, and resorted to 'hope' as a business plan. But they keep me
> hanging on. The CEO said he'd let me keep my shares (if they end up
> being worth anything) if I hang around part-time. Plus, for tax reasons,
> it helps tremendously to have more than one client if you freelance. It
> looks more like a credible independent business rather than some dubious
> employment relationship.
>
> Urgh, so, yeah, I do this thing which seems to suck the life blood from
> me right now. But I only do it once a week, so it's no so bad, right?
> Great gods, I hate my overly-optimistic coping mechanism. It really
> hurts me in the end.

Since you seem to have some positives to keeping that account, perhaps 
renegotiating the pay is worth considering? It sounds like they need you more 
than you need them. The worst they can say is NO, right? To which you can 
always reply, "See ya later."

> > Too many of us didn't get a chance to learn to say NO as two year-olds,
> > when we are supposed to learn that. So we never progress to I'M DONE.
> > Better late to learn both, than never!
>
> This seemed profound to me. After reading this, I remembered what saying
> no was like for me as a child. I got beaten, kicked and punched for
> saying no. No wonder I have such a hard time with it now.

::snip::

Hearing about child abuse makes me profoundly sad. I think I'll go hug my 
teddy bear right now. I say, NO! NO beating, NO kicking, and NO punching! NO, 
NO, NO. What happened to you was wrong, and I hope you yell NO about it, 
quite a bit!

Valorie

From jarich@perltraining.com.au  Thu Apr 26 13:10:34 2007
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Gloria W wrote:

> I'm having trouble with this right now. I didn't exactly quit my 
> previous full-time job to go freelance. I kept them on as a client. 
...
  Now there is only maintenance, and it is boring as hell.
> The CTO convinced me to take a low hourly rate once I switched to 
> contracting, because he does not support contracting, but did not want 
> to lose me. I did not negotiate because I felt badly about leaving.
> 
> Now I feel resentful for taking such a low paying contract, since my 
> other, full-time contract is twice the hourly rate of this one.

A couple of years into our business, we hit a snag just like this one.  We had 
some clients who we felt we owed, because they had been there at the start and 
by paying for our services helped us get our business happening in the first 
place.  But they were still paying our early rates and we were sufficiently well 
established now that we were able to charge new customers much more.  Further, 
their work was indeed boring.

So we ummed and ahhhed about how to best fix things.  And we fixed upon a good 
solution.  With one client we had a yearly contract, so when they came due we 
told them that we were increasing our rates and did so.  We didn't jump to the 
full amount we were charging others, but we significantly reduced the gap and 
also improved our working conditions.  We explained that they were receiving a 
discount from our other clients because of our long association and also because 
they gave us so much work (about 12 paid hours a week).

Another client didn't have a contract at all, it was just an informal agreement. 
  So we told them that as of a couple of months time we were moving all of our 
clients onto contracts.  We phrased it in such a way that it kind of sounded 
like a good deal to them, but mostly we let them see that it was a CYA action on 
our behalf.  When drawing up the contract we did much the same thing as with the 
previous example, we told them that other clients were paying $Y an hour and 
that because we valued them we would give them a 25% discount.

A final example was a client who usually asked us to do fixed priced jobs.  I 
started contracting for her about 5 years before we started the business at 
$20/hour.  As we got busier and thus as our time became more valuable, I just 
increased the unit cost of my time in her quotes.  She accepted less of them, 
but that didn't really bother me.  I don't feel I was ripping her off, as I had 
learned a lot in those years and thus could give her better work - faster.

Now I'm not sure at what stage your business is at.  If you only have two 
clients, you are definitely in a weaker position than if you have a few more. 
As you said, it certainly makes tax matters easier if you have multiple income 
sources.  It might be a good idea to grin and bear it at the moment while you 
also try to pick up another client or two.  On the other hand, there's no time 
like the present to ask both of your clients to sign contracts.  These should 
ideally stipulate:

        * amount per hour, plus taxes if required
        * minimum amount the contract is due (for example 1 day a week for a year (50 
weeks) with 7 hours a day: 350 hours.  We usually based our minimum on 80% of 
that: 280 hours.  Thus they agree to pay you a minimum of 280 hours work between 
the start and end of the contract.  This is where you state that you're giving 
them a discount because of the large amount of work they're giving you.
        * minimum engagement time if you're called to their premises.  We usually say 
that if we have to visit them we'll charge a minimum of 4 hours.  Of course this 
doesn't need to apply, so meetings and lunches can be uncharged.
        * indemnity - they won't ask you to perform anything which is illegal, and they 
grant you full indemnity from all consequences of work you perform under their 
instruction.  (For example if they ask you to copy someone's website design, or 
scrape someone's articles - it's their fault if that someone gets upset).
        * phone call charges.  We never actually added this to our contracts, before we 
gave up on our needier clients, but I recommend it.  If any of your clients tend 
to call you a lot; charge them for it.  Tell them, that you're very happy for 
them to interrupt you (assuming you are) but that you'll charge them for the 
call time and work that generates in 15 or 30 minute blocks (depending on how 
nice you are and how long these calls usually take).  Make sure that your block 
size is big enough to give you about 10 free minutes after each call.  This is 
to allow you to record the charges, send them a summary of the telephone call 
and finally to context switch back to whatever you were originally doing.


Remember that contracts do not have to be fair (beyond the obvious requirements 
of legality).  If you're writing it, you can make it as beneficial to yourself 
as you want without having to explain or justify yourself.  If they don't like 
those clauses then you can negotiate and come up with ones that are more 
suitable.  If they sign what you give them, then you're happy.

As another useful business tip, make sure you have a good task tracker.  We use 
RT (request tracker) by Best Practical, but there are other good options as 
well.  Ideally your clients should be able to see their own queue, create tasks, 
comment on tasks etc.  RT provides both email and web interfaces and we use it 
to track all of our correspondence and phone call information.  It's great to be 
able to say: on the 5th of January last year you wrote .....

All the best,

        Jacinta


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From: "Doc Nielsen" <docnielsen@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On 4/26/07, Jacinta Richardson <jarich@perltraining.com.au> wrote:
> As another useful business tip, make sure you have a good task tracker.  We use
> RT (request tracker) by Best Practical, but there are other good options as
> well.  Ideally your clients should be able to see their own queue, create tasks,
> comment on tasks etc.  RT provides both email and web interfaces and we use it
> to track all of our correspondence and phone call information.  It's great to be
> able to say: on the 5th of January last year you wrote .....

At my new work we use IssueTracker, since all our webApps are zope/plone based.
http://www.issuetrackerproduct.com/

I too have had a hard time saying no to work.
I think it boils down to my eagerness and willingness to please others.
I was bullied at school back in the lower grades, pre-teen, and as a
result, i mostly kept to myself, entertained myself, and didn't
interact much with the other kids. I didn't have many friends, nor
many playmates.
As i grew older, my only friends came from education or work, and were
more colleagues than friends. We had a common goal, and i was always
head of my class in tech school, and in IT school too. So i was sought
after for my knowhow, and i agreed to assist because of my inner need
to avoid conflicts.

Last year i think i said the biggest NO of my life.
During the summer of 2006 i was working as an apprentice at an
IT-support bizz. Most of the summer, my vacation had been delayed
because someone else was taking a vacation at the time when i would
like mine. When i had to go back for my 4 of 8 term (5 weeks) at IT
school, i asked my boss if i could have a few days off, as part of my
summer vacation, the week before school. He refused again, because
that week was his own vacation week, and he couldn't do without.
So 5 weeks past, and when i returned from school, i asked my boss
again for my 3 weeks summer vacation, and he agreed to let me take the
three weeks, provided i came in on thursday and friday during the
first week. I told him NO.

Me and my girlfriend at the time had plans 500km away, as her brother
had finished his education and was hosting a huge "svendegilde"
(completion of education celebration), and there was no way i was
going to travel back and forth from nothern Jylland to Copenhagen,
just to he could fill the schedule for two days. He objected, but he
had no valid argument for not letting me take 3 full weeks, so i did.

So i went on my vacation, and when the 30th of october came round, i
noticed my pay didnt land in my bankaccount.
Turns out i had been fired, via email, because i refused to work..
or as he claims: i agreed to work on the two days, and then just didn't show.

Needless to say, my union is now filing a suit against him...

Many of you don't know me that well, but my working relationship with
him was very straining, and he was not an easy person to work for. I
had on many occations been overloaded with the other techies tasks,
because they didn't have time for them.
Imagine having to explain to a customer why the tiny/urgent job they
ordered three weeks ago had been delayed/ditched because "someone"
didn't bother to follow up, do the job or take the blame, and then
hand it to the apprentice who gets the blame.
That happend more than a few times, and i finally managed to say no
when the other techies threw me late tasks.

Now i'm working as an equal, for a equal, sharing the load.
My new boss is great at being the admin, while i (as junior admin) do
the easier tasks and help out with the major tasks.
In a 4 man IT department, i am now working full time, while covering
for my boss as he attends a few classes tuesdays and thursdays.
I am finally respected and appreciated for my skills, and the pay is
about 50% higher than apprentice pay, while i have fewer hours, and
less stress.

I think i struck gold. Lets hope it lasts :)

-Doc
-- 
No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Thu Apr 26 17:43:56 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:43:38 -0700
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On Thursday 26 April 2007 07:20, Doc Nielsen wrote:
>
> I too have had a hard time saying no to work.
> I think it boils down to my eagerness and willingness to please others.
> I was bullied at school back in the lower grades, pre-teen, and as a
> result, i mostly kept to myself, entertained myself, and didn't
> interact much with the other kids. I didn't have many friends, nor
> many playmates.
> As i grew older, my only friends came from education or work, and were
> more colleagues than friends. We had a common goal, and i was always
> head of my class in tech school, and in IT school too. So i was sought
> after for my knowhow, and i agreed to assist because of my inner need
> to avoid conflicts.

A born computer geek! :) I'll wager a lot of us can relate to this.

>
> Last year i think i said the biggest NO of my life.

>... i asked my boss if i could have a few days off, as part of my
> summer vacation, the week before school. He refused again, because
> that week was his own vacation week, and he couldn't do without.
> So 5 weeks past, and when i returned from school, i asked my boss
> again for my 3 weeks summer vacation, and he agreed to let me take the
> three weeks, provided i came in on thursday and friday during the
> first week. I told him NO.

> ...He objected, but he
> had no valid argument for not letting me take 3 full weeks, so i did.
>
> So i went on my vacation, and when the 30th of october came round, i
> noticed my pay didnt land in my bankaccount.
> Turns out i had been fired, via email, because i refused to work..
> or as he claims: i agreed to work on the two days, and then just didn't
> show.

Grrr.

>
> Needless to say, my union is now filing a suit against him...

Yay! 

Interestingly, a lot of US technical professionals are anti-union because as 
far as I can tell, they're trapped in this weird "rugged individualist" 
philosophy, like they're geek John Waynes or something. When the reality is 
the employer has all the resources and power. (I know, some unions are 
corrupt and evil, but that's a different issue.)
...
>
> Now i'm working as an equal, for a equal, sharing the load.
> My new boss is great at being the admin, while i (as junior admin) do
> the easier tasks and help out with the major tasks.
> In a 4 man IT department, i am now working full time, while covering
> for my boss as he attends a few classes tuesdays and thursdays.
> I am finally respected and appreciated for my skills, and the pay is
> about 50% higher than apprentice pay, while i have fewer hours, and
> less stress.
>
> I think i struck gold. Lets hope it lasts :)
>

Good for you! It's amazing how much long-term pain we will endure in order to 
avoid short-term pain, like standing up to a jerk boss or looking for a 
better job. I'm glad things worked out for you.
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 10:43:38AM -0700 or thereabouts, Carla Schroder wrote:
> On Thursday 26 April 2007 07:20, Doc Nielsen wrote:
> >
> > ...He objected, but he
> > had no valid argument for not letting me take 3 full weeks, so i did.
> >
> > So i went on my vacation, and when the 30th of october came round, i
> > noticed my pay didnt land in my bankaccount.
> > Turns out i had been fired, via email, because i refused to work..
> > or as he claims: i agreed to work on the two days, and then just didn't
> > show.
> 
> Grrr.
> 
> >
> > Needless to say, my union is now filing a suit against him...
> 
> Yay! 
> 
> Interestingly, a lot of US technical professionals are anti-union because as 
> far as I can tell, they're trapped in this weird "rugged individualist" 
> philosophy, like they're geek John Waynes or something. When the reality is 
> the employer has all the resources and power. (I know, some unions are 
> corrupt and evil, but that's a different issue.)

It's important to note that (depending on jurisdiction) you don't
necessarily need a union to file an unfair dismissal suit.  If your country
has unfair dismissal legislation, you can take the suit yourself.

Conor
-- 
Conor Daly,                   
Met Eireann, Glasnevin Hill,  
Dublin 9, Ireland             
Ph +3531 8064276 Fax +3531 8064247

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Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:47:14 +0200
From: "Doc Nielsen" <docnielsen@gmail.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On 4/27/07, Conor Daly <c.daly@met.ie> wrote:
> > On Thursday 26 April 2007 07:20, Doc Nielsen wrote:

> > > Needless to say, my union is now filing a suit against him...

> It's important to note that (depending on jurisdiction) you don't
> necessarily need a union to file an unfair dismissal suit.  If your country
> has unfair dismissal legislation, you can take the suit yourself.

yeah but my union has a department for this, a staff of lawyers,
and they do it for free since i'm a member.

I don't know what the case status is at the moment, and i don't really care.
If we end up in court, i can claim loss of pay from november to mid
april, about 12000 DKK a month. Thats going to hurt the firm.

>:-)

-Doc
-- 
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From: Conor Daly <c.daly@met.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On Fri, Apr 27, 2007 at 02:47:14PM +0200 or thereabouts, Doc Nielsen wrote:
> 
> yeah but my union has a department for this, a staff of lawyers,
> and they do it for free since i'm a member.
> 
> I don't know what the case status is at the moment, and i don't really care.
> If we end up in court, i can claim loss of pay from november to mid
> april, about 12000 DKK a month. Thats going to hurt the firm.

And damage to your reputation?  Very important if you're just starting out
in your career.  Who will want to hire somebody who was fired from their
apprenticeship?...

Conor
-- 
Conor Daly,                   
Met Eireann, Glasnevin Hill,  
Dublin 9, Ireland             
Ph +3531 8064276 Fax +3531 8064247

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Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:44:33 +0200
From: "Doc Nielsen" <docnielsen@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On 4/27/07, Conor Daly <c.daly@met.ie> wrote:
> And damage to your reputation?  Very important if you're just starting out
> in your career.  Who will want to hire somebody who was fired from their
> apprenticeship?...

I'd rather have a poor reputation because of an idiot boss,
than not stand up for myself and demand what is mine.
He abused me as an apprentice, giving me jobs i wasn't trained for,
and failed to provide the tasks i was supposed to have between semesters.
When i finally stood up to him, he sacked me without so much as a warning.

I think my reputation can handle being fired because of that, don't you?

-Doc
-- 
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From: Conor Daly <conor.daly-linuxchix@cod.homelinux.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On Fri, Apr 27, 2007 at 10:44:33PM +0200 or so it is rumoured hereabouts, 
Doc Nielsen thought:
> On 4/27/07, Conor Daly <c.daly@met.ie> wrote:
> >And damage to your reputation?  Very important if you're just starting out
> >in your career.  Who will want to hire somebody who was fired from their
> >apprenticeship?...
> 
> I'd rather have a poor reputation because of an idiot boss,
> than not stand up for myself and demand what is mine.
> He abused me as an apprentice, giving me jobs i wasn't trained for,
> and failed to provide the tasks i was supposed to have between semesters.
> When i finally stood up to him, he sacked me without so much as a warning.
> 
> I think my reputation can handle being fired because of that, don't you?

Oh, I agree.  You should have no problem justifying your choices to
another prospective boss.  What I was saying is that your unfair dismissal
case should take financial account of possible damage to your reputation
as well as just loss of earnings.  I wasn't suggesting that you were wrong
to stand up for yourself...

Conor
-- 
Conor Daly <conor.daly@cod.homelinux.org>
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Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:12:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
From: "Sheryl" <gubydala@his.com>
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Doc Nielson wrote:

> Last year i think i said the biggest NO of my life.

Congratulations for standing up for yourself.  I think I also said the
biggest NO of my life last year.

My parents taught me that if I was lucky enough to get a job I should do
whatever it took to keep it.  Didn't matter if I was happy.  So I only ha=
d
3 jobs in 25 years.  Each time I stayed too long and the change was
excruciating for me.  I always did the "safe" thing and had a job lined u=
p
first.  I passed up a number of opportunities out of fear and mistaken
ideas about loyalty (like if the boss doesn't want me to leave, who am I
to leave?).

Last year, after spending some time in a workplace that had been taken
over by abusive management, I responded to an inappropriate situation in
what I thought was the only appropriate way -- I turned in 2 weeks notice=
.
 After 15 years, with a mortgage and no job lined up.  I thought it might
come to that and had been interviewing.  I also had a plan for finances.=20
But it was very liberating to have a "Johnny Paycheck" moment and never
look back.  And I hope that it sent a message to my management, even if
they weren't willing to acknowledge it, that they can't just treat people
any old way and expect them to just stick around and take it.

As a 50-something person, I expected not to find a new gig immediately.  =
I
didn't pursue the position I'd interviewed for, even though they liked me=
,
because it meant a commute and the job was more intense than I wanted to
take on at the time.  Friends and colleagues around me were horrified and
tried to set up interviews for me or find consulting jobs to tide me over=
.
 I told them I appreciated their concern but needed a break.  As it
happens I didn't have one.  I fell over a job that would let me learn new
things in an area I was interested in.  I wound up only being out of work
3 weeks.

> I think i struck gold. Lets hope it lasts :)

Same here. :-)

>
> -Doc
> --
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
> However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses
>


From amandaangell@spin.net.au  Thu Apr 26 08:10:18 2007
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From: Amanda Angell <amandaangell@spin.net.au>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:39:54 +0930
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On Monday 23 April 2007 5:33 am, Carla Schroder wrote:
> Lesson 4: Saying No!

<snip>
> Life is too short to waste.
<snip>

That's the most important line in lesson 2 for me! :)

In my effort to live spinefully, I took the plunge and told my work what I 
wanted today. It was quite difficult - I cried while talking - but I didn't 
want to stop or I'd never say it.

I've used up 4 days of my sick leave (out of 6 sick days for a 3 month 
contract) in just over 1 month of being there. Just about every week 
something else goes wrong, and I think the stress of working full-time was 
making things worse.

To make things doubly worse, they were training me in the call-centre this 
week, which really doesn't agree with me - I hate phones, and talking to 
people isn't my strong suit (to put it mildly!). So.. I told them how I 
felt.. and they've been really good. I'm back to Data Entry (I really rock at 
data entry, although I get so bored, it's better than phones!) and I'm 
talking to a higher-power tomorrow about going part-time!

Basically, I said what I wanted, and so-far, it looks as though I'm going to 
get it. Although, the hardest thing was working out exactly what it was I 
wanted in the first place.

Now, all I have to do is concentrate on working out what my ultimate goal 
really is - what I really want out of life, what job to do, what will make me 
happy. I know my current job isn't it, but today was a start in making at 
least bareable.

Thanks for the course! I'll keep reading, everyone's been so inspirational.

Amanda.

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Thu Apr 26 15:44:18 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:43:59 -0700
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On Thursday 26 April 2007 01:09, Amanda Angell wrote:
> . I told them how I
> felt.. and they've been really good. I'm back to Data Entry (I really rock
> at data entry, although I get so bored, it's better than phones!) and I'm
> talking to a higher-power tomorrow about going part-time!
>
> Basically, I said what I wanted, and so-far, it looks as though I'm going
> to get it. Although, the hardest thing was working out exactly what it was
> I wanted in the first place.

Yaaayyyy! Well done!!

>
> Now, all I have to do is concentrate on working out what my ultimate goal
> really is - what I really want out of life, what job to do, what will make
> me happy. I know my current job isn't it, but today was a start in making
> at least bareable.

Very cool! Thank you for sharing this, this is very encouraging!

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Fri Apr 27 03:41:41 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
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Subject: [Courses] [Spineful Living- Basic Human Rights]
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Basic Human Rights
1. The right to feel good about yourself

2. The right to act in ways that promote your dignity and self- 
respect as long as others' rights are not violated in the process

3. The right to be treated with respect

4. The right to say "No!" and not feel guilty

5. The right to experience and to express your feelings

6. The right to slow down and think

7. The right to change your mind

8. The right to ask for what you want

9. The right to do less than you are humanly capable of doing

10. The right to ask for information

11. The right to make mistakes

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From valoriez@zimres.net  Fri Apr 27 12:17:14 2007
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From: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living- Basic Human Rights]
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:30:07 -0700
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I've been meaning to post about an issue I'm tackling with my son's school 
administration: bullying. Cruelty is one of my push-buttons, so dealing with 
the reality that my son was being bullied was the first difficult part of all 
this. The rage I felt was so overwhelming, that I decided that I would put 
off a full-blown confrontation with the administration until I could marshall 
my resources, and work collaboratively with them on improving the situation 
for all students, rather than coming in with a flame-thrower and burning the 
place down -- which is what I felt like, last year.

Of course I did talk to the counselor who was dealing with one/some of the 
bullies at the time, but the last two years, that's where we left it. This 
year, I finally felt calm enough to start talking to the Safe School 
Coalition for help, and schedule a meeting with the principal, counselor, and 
the helpful fellow from SSC. I was amazed at how difficult it was to actually 
plan and schedule the initial meeting. I could hardly sleep the night before. 

That first meeting turned out pretty well, and although I shed some tears, my 
emotion seemed to be a good thing. Tears seemed to let them know how serious 
the issue was, and how committed I was to improving conditions in the school. 
They seemed shocked, SHOCKED that bullying of gay kids was so common at 
Kentlake HS. How that could be, I don't know! Did they never talk to the kids 
in the GSA (Gay Straight Alliance) club? It turns out that no, they had not!

A successful confrontation is so empowering! Still, I was very impatient with 
the poor communication about developments, so I pushed for another meeting to 
find out what progress had been made in the plans to have a staff training 
day early next year. 

Fortunately for me, Carla started this course in the meantime, and I started 
reading _When I say no, I feel guilty_. The day before the second meeting, I 
read the chapter about the Broken Record technique, and was determined to use 
that if they were still stalling. Fortunately, this wasn't necessary! I was 
gonna do it, though. :-)

I found out that the reason I hadn't heard about a date, is that the calendar 
for next year hasn't been completed by the School Board and Superintendant's 
office. At this point, after some of the articles I've sent them, and the 
death of 33 students at Virginia Tech, they are starting to take bullying 
VERY seriously. Not only will they have one staff training about this issue 
early next year, *taught by the GSA kids* (with the assistance of the Safe 
Schools Coalition), but they want to do a series of shorter trainings 
throughout the year also. AND they would like to have a speaker in, to speak 
to the students in an assembly. So we are now in discussions about who would 
be a good person to schedule. Judy Shepard's name was brought up, so they are 
thinking big.

My next step is to talk to the Superintendent's office, and see what we can 
get going at the District level. Bullying starts in grade school, and needs 
to be addressed there and in the middle and high schools, all of them.

It's amazing how much easier that huge task seems, than making the date for 
that initial meeting. It really is true that a long journey begins with a 
single step. And I'm glad to be working with them to solve the problem, 
rather than talking to the ACLU about filing suit. Although, if the district 
doesn't change its ways, that could still happen!

Valorie

I leave these Basic Human Rights, because so many of them were involved in my 
story.

On Thursday 26 April 2007 20:41, Carla Schroder wrote:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Basic Human Rights
> 1. The right to feel good about yourself
>
> 2. The right to act in ways that promote your dignity and self-
> respect as long as others' rights are not violated in the process
>
> 3. The right to be treated with respect
>
> 4. The right to say "No!" and not feel guilty
>
> 5. The right to experience and to express your feelings
>
> 6. The right to slow down and think
>
> 7. The right to change your mind
>
> 8. The right to ask for what you want
>
> 9. The right to do less than you are humanly capable of doing
>
> 10. The right to ask for information
>
> 11. The right to make mistakes

From jarich@perltraining.com.au  Fri Apr 27 13:33:48 2007
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From: Jacinta Richardson <jarich@perltraining.com.au>
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To: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living- Basic Human Rights]
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Way to go Valorie!

I remember you bringing this up at an earlier point, and I just want to say that 
I'm so thoroughly impressed with you!  It takes a lot of guts to stand up for 
what you believe in, and you've done that; you've stood up for your child to 
people who are probably used to ignoring (and possibly minimising) such 
complaints, and you're making things change for the better.  This is such an 
awesome story and I'd love to hear the rest of it as it goes on.

All the best,

        Jacinta

From valoriez@zimres.net  Sat Apr 28 10:02:21 2007
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From: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living- Basic Human Rights]
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 00:00:41 -0700
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On Friday 27 April 2007 06:33, you wrote:
> Way to go Valorie!
>
> I remember you bringing this up at an earlier point, and I just want to say
> that I'm so thoroughly impressed with you!  It takes a lot of guts to stand
> up for what you believe in, and you've done that; you've stood up for your
> child to people who are probably used to ignoring (and possibly minimising)
> such complaints, and you're making things change for the better.  This is
> such an awesome story and I'd love to hear the rest of it as it goes on.
>
> All the best,
>
>       Jacinta

Thank you! I actually found it easier to stand up for my kid than I ever did 
for myself, sad to say. However, I think "standing up" can get to be a 
habit. :-)

I forgot to mention in my previous email how much support I got from PFLAG in 
this entire ordeal. It's funny, because i joined PFLAG as a way to support my 
son when he first came out. My support meeting sympathized with my sorrow and 
rage, and helped me to contact the Safe Schools Coalition, and gently 
encouraged me to move forward in confrontation. They have all offered to 
attend School Board meetings, if that becomes necessary. 
http://www.pflag.org, for those of you who are not familiar with them.

It is my desire that the Superintendent reacts pretty much as the high school 
principal and counselor did, and immediately begins planning to create 
change. However, I'm prepared to persevere, no matter what it takes. School 
Board, suing, whatever. It helps that the State of Washington has 
anti-bullying laws on the books.

Hopefully it will not be much longer before all school administrations see the 
light, and work to create more positive and nurturing school environments.

Valorie

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Fri Apr 27 15:13:51 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living- Basic Human Rights]
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:13:32 -0700
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On Friday 27 April 2007 04:30, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> I've been meaning to post about an issue I'm tackling with my son's school
> administration: bullying. Cruelty is one of my push-buttons, so dealing
> with the reality that my son was being bullied was the first difficult part
> of all this. The rage I felt was so overwhelming, that I decided that I
> would put off a full-blown confrontation with the administration until I
> could marshall my resources, and work collaboratively with them on
> improving the situation for all students, rather than coming in with a
> flame-thrower and burning the place down -

Aww, why hold back?  ;)

Thank you very much for sharing this with the list!

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From maria@shadlen.org  Fri Apr 27 18:50:56 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living- Basic Human Rights]
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If you need any further sparks to light under their butts, here is a big 
one:

The study was done by http://www.fightcrime.org/, which looks like an 
excellent resource, and is reported here:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/04/sprj.sch.bullying.prevention.ap/

"Nearly 60 percent of boys who researchers classified as bullies in 
grades six though nine were convicted of at least one crime by the age 
of 24; 40 percent of them had three or more convictions by 24, the 
report said."

Another article about repercussions for both bullies and their victims:

http://www.nichd.nih.gov/news/releases/bullies.cfm

Good luck, and way to go!

cheers,
maria


Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> I've been meaning to post about an issue I'm tackling with my son's school 
> administration: bullying. Cruelty is one of my push-buttons, so dealing with 
> the reality that my son was being bullied was the first difficult part of all 
> this. The rage I felt was so overwhelming, that I decided that I would put 
> off a full-blown confrontation with the administration until I could marshall 
> my resources, and work collaboratively with them on improving the situation 
> for all students, rather than coming in with a flame-thrower and burning the 
> place down -- which is what I felt like, last year.
> 
> Of course I did talk to the counselor who was dealing with one/some of the 
> bullies at the time, but the last two years, that's where we left it. This 
> year, I finally felt calm enough to start talking to the Safe School 
> Coalition for help, and schedule a meeting with the principal, counselor, and 
> the helpful fellow from SSC. I was amazed at how difficult it was to actually 
> plan and schedule the initial meeting. I could hardly sleep the night before. 
> 
> That first meeting turned out pretty well, and although I shed some tears, my 
> emotion seemed to be a good thing. Tears seemed to let them know how serious 
> the issue was, and how committed I was to improving conditions in the school. 
> They seemed shocked, SHOCKED that bullying of gay kids was so common at 
> Kentlake HS. How that could be, I don't know! Did they never talk to the kids 
> in the GSA (Gay Straight Alliance) club? It turns out that no, they had not!
> 
> A successful confrontation is so empowering! Still, I was very impatient with 
> the poor communication about developments, so I pushed for another meeting to 
> find out what progress had been made in the plans to have a staff training 
> day early next year. 
> 
> Fortunately for me, Carla started this course in the meantime, and I started 
> reading _When I say no, I feel guilty_. The day before the second meeting, I 
> read the chapter about the Broken Record technique, and was determined to use 
> that if they were still stalling. Fortunately, this wasn't necessary! I was 
> gonna do it, though. :-)
> 
> I found out that the reason I hadn't heard about a date, is that the calendar 
> for next year hasn't been completed by the School Board and Superintendant's 
> office. At this point, after some of the articles I've sent them, and the 
> death of 33 students at Virginia Tech, they are starting to take bullying 
> VERY seriously. Not only will they have one staff training about this issue 
> early next year, *taught by the GSA kids* (with the assistance of the Safe 
> Schools Coalition), but they want to do a series of shorter trainings 
> throughout the year also. AND they would like to have a speaker in, to speak 
> to the students in an assembly. So we are now in discussions about who would 
> be a good person to schedule. Judy Shepard's name was brought up, so they are 
> thinking big.
> 
> My next step is to talk to the Superintendent's office, and see what we can 
> get going at the District level. Bullying starts in grade school, and needs 
> to be addressed there and in the middle and high schools, all of them.
> 
> It's amazing how much easier that huge task seems, than making the date for 
> that initial meeting. It really is true that a long journey begins with a 
> single step. And I'm glad to be working with them to solve the problem, 
> rather than talking to the ACLU about filing suit. Although, if the district 
> doesn't change its ways, that could still happen!
> 
> Valorie
> 
> I leave these Basic Human Rights, because so many of them were involved in my 
> story.
> 
> On Thursday 26 April 2007 20:41, Carla Schroder wrote:
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Basic Human Rights
>> 1. The right to feel good about yourself
>>
>> 2. The right to act in ways that promote your dignity and self-
>> respect as long as others' rights are not violated in the process
>>
>> 3. The right to be treated with respect
>>
>> 4. The right to say "No!" and not feel guilty
>>
>> 5. The right to experience and to express your feelings
>>
>> 6. The right to slow down and think
>>
>> 7. The right to change your mind
>>
>> 8. The right to ask for what you want
>>
>> 9. The right to do less than you are humanly capable of doing
>>
>> 10. The right to ask for information
>>
>> 11. The right to make mistakes
> _______________________________________________
> Courses mailing list
> Courses@linuxchix.org
> http://mailman.linuxchix.org/mailman/listinfo/courses

From annaheyonbaik@gmail.com  Fri Apr 27 22:47:51 2007
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Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:41:22 +0100
From: "Anna Baik" <annaheyonbaik@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Courses] Re: [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
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On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:48:32 +0100 Conor Daly <c.daly@met.ie> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 10:43:38AM -0700 or thereabouts, Carla Schroder wrote:
> > On Thursday 26 April 2007 07:20, Doc Nielsen wrote:
[about being unjustly fired for taking much delayed and pre-agreed leave]
> > > Needless to say, my union is now filing a suit against him...
> >
> > Yay!
> >
> > Interestingly, a lot of US technical professionals are anti-union because as
> > far as I can tell, they're trapped in this weird "rugged individualist"
> > philosophy, like they're geek John Waynes or something. When the reality is
> > the employer has all the resources and power. (I know, some unions are
> > corrupt and evil, but that's a different issue.)
>
> It's important to note that (depending on jurisdiction) you don't
> necessarily need a union to file an unfair dismissal suit.  If your country
> has unfair dismissal legislation, you can take the suit yourself.

True, but as Doc pointed out, the benefit of having a union take a
suit on your behalf is that they have a whole legal dept at their
call.  And, seeing as this is what they do *all the time*, they know
all the tricks. Especially the dirty ones your employer will try to
pull.  But yes - if you happen to be in that situation without being
fortunate enough to have the backing of a decent (or even semi-decent)
union, then yes, it is important to know that it's still possible to
do something about it in many jurisdictions.

*However* - seeing as this is the Spineful Living course - I'd add
that it's just as important to decide for yourself whether you want to
pursue a suit, without feeling that you "have to".  It's likely to be
a major commitment, and you have the right to say no if you don't feel
that you can handle it, or if you just don't *want* to handle it.

Going back to the union thing, I just don't get the "rugged
individualist" anti-union stance that Carla mentions.  I mean - I
regularly pay people to perform professional services for me because I
don't have the time, the energy, the ability, or the desire to become
skilled and knowledgeable enough in multiple fields to do them for
myself.  And I count my union dues as just that - fees paid for
professional services - they're MY HR dept, they work for ME.  My
employer's HR dept is just that - my employer's, working for my
employer's interests, not mine, except where they happen to coincide.

I'm the world's crappiest negotiator, so being able to contract out
the pay negotiation part of the whole employment deal to someone else
for a very reasonable fee makes me extremely happy.  Collective
bargaining rules!  I get a yearly raise, and someone *else* gets to
waste weeks of their life attending meetings on my behalf.  Really,
what's not to like about that?

cheers,
Anna

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Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:25:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Courses] Re: [Spineful Living, Lesson 4: Saying No!]
From: "Sheryl" <gubydala@his.com>
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Ana Baik wrote:

> *However* - seeing as this is the Spineful Living course - I'd add
> that it's just as important to decide for yourself whether you want to
> pursue a suit, without feeling that you "have to".  It's likely to be
> a major commitment, and you have the right to say no if you don't feel
> that you can handle it, or if you just don't *want* to handle it.

I agree, and I did that myself in relation to a health issue.  But on the
other hand, there have been times I've been willing to take a risk or
dealt with something unpleasant head on because I was in a situation wher=
e
I felt someone needed to.

> Going back to the union thing, I just don't get the "rugged
> individualist" anti-union stance that Carla mentions.

Of course, some people are terrified that they'll be harassed or fired if
they try to join a union.  And although it's illegal, it does happen.

But basically I think a lot of people are brainwashed.  There's the
"Professional Attitude" scam I used to go along with, the idea that if
your management fouled up you would give up your free time with no extra
pay.  There was always some vague, "we'll take care of you if the project
is completed on time" promise.  It usually turned out like one project,
where I averaged over 72 hours/week for 3 months and got all of 3 days of=
f
for it and was expected to fall down in gratitude.

I also think there's a strong thread of Libertarianism and the cockiness
of youth in the profession.  I think the major flaw of Libertarianism is
the notion that everyone has equal negotiating power, and if you believe
that then unions look like a scam I suppose.

Sheryl


From carla@bratgrrl.com  Mon Apr 30 00:21:27 2007
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Subject: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
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Or it is The Hardest Noes?

I was cruising through "When I Say No I Feel Guilty" when the phone rang. It 
was a friend who wanted to borrow my pickup truck. I said yes. Then I went 
back to the book and got to thinking- why did I say yes? What if I had said 
no? (Not that I really wanted to say no, it's just an illustration.) Which 
got me to thinking about the hardest people to say no to. 

For me it's friends and loved ones. I can tell phone spammers and religious 
proselytizers and pushy salespeople where to get off. But when it comes to 
friend and family, well, that's a whole different deal. Why is that? What's 
so hard about saying "No, I do not want to loan you the truck today." Or "No 
mom, I do not want to drive 350 miles to visit you." Or "No, I do not want to 
support yet another school beg-a-thon for your kids." Or "I hate Amway, Mary 
Kay, SeaWeed Life, Miracle Herbal Candles, PowerCrystalRocks, and all 
multi-level marketed products, so don't even invite me to your home parties."

Because I work at home I've had a lot of practice at being the broken 
record- "No, I cannot do that now because I AM WORKING." It seems that a lot 
of people have jobs that give them abundant free time to take care of 
personal business, so they assume that everyone's a slacker. Well I don't. 
But it took a bit of pain and almost-missed deadlines to get stern about it.

All of these come down to the same problem- people who want something from me. 
What's in it for me? Most of the time, not a darned thing. 

===A Lesson in No!===

Terry, my significantotherlightofmyeyesloveofmylife and all that kewl gooey 
stuff, is good at being authoritative; a lesson a lot of women need to learn. 
She has worked in jobs where she had to boss teenagers, which is the ultimate 
test in bossing. But even wise people who have seen it all get misled by 
their own compassion. 

The sad tale is as follows: Young friend of hers is living in another state 
with the parents of his girlfriend, and their baby. Terry works with friend's 
father, so every day she is hearing phone calls where son is begging for 
help, send money, it's awful here, her folks are nuts, help help, and dad is 
all gee I just can't, I don't have any money. Dad doesn't come right out and 
ask for help, but he hints around a lot. So Terry buys bus tickets for son, 
gf, and baby, and makes dad sign a note for the loan.

Son & family gets home, he's all happy and full of thank-yous. Until it's time 
to fork over money to pay Terry back. She collects a couple of payments from 
him (pretty much by force) then son gets in legal trouble and disappears. So 
she goes to dad, who tries to blow her off, lala not his problem. He doesn't 
exert himself to pay his debts under any circumstances; I guess if you're 
dumb enough to loan him money you didn't really need it is his 
philosophy. But he did sign the note, so she put the screws to dad and after 
some truly heroic Fogging and Broken Record-ing, and threats of legal action, 
she finally got repaid. (And she hadn't even read the book then!)

A few points I think worth pointing out here are:

1. Being compassionate and caring does not mean you are required to be a 
sucker
2. If you make a mistake like this you are still entitled to a full recovery, 
so you must be immune to any and all attempts at guilting and weaseling
3. It doesn't matter how well-off you are- when someone owes you something, 
you are entitled to be paid back.

Number 3 is an especial peeve of mine. An awful lot of people have the idea 
that anyone who is more prosperous than they are is required to share. A lot 
of people have these weird, vague ideas that they are supposed to share 
because it is "right". Well no, you're not required. It's your choice, and it 
is entirely your right to say "no." 

Homework: please share your best horror or success stories at dealing with 
loved ones who want things from you.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Mon Apr 30 01:54:03 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
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On Sun, Apr 29, 2007 at 05:21:10PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> Homework: please share your best horror or success stories at dealing with 
> loved ones who want things from you.

I learned a lesson from one of my favourite movies, "Labyrinth".  In it,
the teenage heroine is taken for granted by her father and stepmother,
and is always asked to babysit her baby half-brother.  The stepmother
justifies her actions by saying that she wouldn't ask if Heroine had
something else to do, like a date (insert worried encouragement that
she'd really like it if Heroine went on dates), but as she obviously had
nothing to do, she shouldn't begrudge helping.

Okay, so this was just a movie, but it made me realize that I could
easily be taken for granted by my brother and roped in to babysit nieces
and nephews in exactly the same way, "because I didn't have anything to
do", because I, like the Heroine in the movie, am not really interested
in going out a lot, and having a quiet, restful night at home could be
counted by some as "not having anything to do".

So I made it clear to my brother that I was perfectly happy to be a
backup emergency babysitter, but I didn't want to be first on the list
of babysitters.  That worked out well; I got called on once or twice,
I was glad to help on those rare occassions, he was glad to get my help,
and everyone was happy.

Now my nieces and nephews are old enough so that the elder ones can
babysit the younger ones, so the need isn't there any more.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Mon Apr 30 17:04:18 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:03:57 -0700
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On Sunday 29 April 2007 18:53, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 29, 2007 at 05:21:10PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> > Homework: please share your best horror or success stories at dealing
> > with loved ones who want things from you.
>
> I learned a lesson from one of my favourite movies, "Labyrinth".  In it,
> the teenage heroine is taken for granted by her father and stepmother,
> and is always asked to babysit her baby half-brother.  The stepmother
> justifies her actions by saying that she wouldn't ask if Heroine had
> something else to do, like a date (insert worried encouragement that
> she'd really like it if Heroine went on dates), but as she obviously had
> nothing to do, she shouldn't begrudge helping.
>
> Okay, so this was just a movie, but it made me realize that I could
> easily be taken for granted by my brother and roped in to babysit nieces
> and nephews in exactly the same way, "because I didn't have anything to
> do", because I, like the Heroine in the movie, am not really interested
> in going out a lot, and having a quiet, restful night at home could be
> counted by some as "not having anything to do".

Isn't that an amazing leap of "logic": doing "nothing" = obligation to do a 
favor for someone else.

>
> So I made it clear to my brother that I was perfectly happy to be a
> backup emergency babysitter, but I didn't want to be first on the list
> of babysitters.  That worked out well; I got called on once or twice,
> I was glad to help on those rare occassions, he was glad to get my help,
> and everyone was happy.
>

Nicely done. 

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From sulamita@linuxchix.org.br  Mon Apr 30 02:07:50 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
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> Homework: please share your best horror or success stories at dealing w=
ith
> loved ones who want things from you.

That is the hardest people to say no, yes. I had to learn to say "no Mom,
I will not send more money to you pay rent for my brother and sister stay
home doing nothing, I don't care, they can work".

But the last episode made me very proud of myself. I live alone, so I
enjoy having friends here in regular base. Sometimes I even let some
friends in transitional situations stay longer, like friends who were
coming to my city and had no place to stay while looking for apartment to
rent. When I came here, a friend of mine supported me and had me over her
place for a month until I get my own place, so I think I want to pay it
forward...

anyway, with my two previous friends who lived with me, they kept annoyin=
g
me with small but repeatedly things, like forgetting the lights on, didn'=
t
helping with house cleaning or talking when I don't want to talk. And of
course, you can't walk anyway you want with a boy at home, or trow your
t-shirt away after work... So, after a month, I did, with both, just
exploded and said a lot of rude things. We still are friends because they
recognize how hard were for me, how non helping they were, and that I had
problems saying when I don't like something.

But after some training, I think I get the way. I tried to help another
friend, who wasn't really close, but was someone needing help, because he
was bisexual and everybody hates him because of that (which I learned
after was not truth, it was because his very selfish and annoying
personality).

So I get the warning when he asked me to stay with me, and told me "I
heard you don't care too much about cleaning". Hmmm, "no, I just don't
like to clean, but I do care, let's state than I ask for the maid to come
more and you pay half of the time". A week after he moved in, he said "I
kind of used your towel". "Kind of..." argh. I didn't say anything at tha=
t
time, but he saw I didn't like it, and offered to wash it, I said I would
wash it. Then another day, he says he is going to study at my souvenirs
table, where I keep all sort of nice stuff I buy or receive as gifts,
because the light would be better. I heard this scream in my head
"noooooooooooooooo!" and I said, "no, I prefer you don't touch anything i=
n
there". And so on, weird and arrogant personality, whining about
everything, playing the the poor uncomprehending intellectual. And I
didn't see him looking for another places.

So, one day, I'm at my computer and I have the TV on some crappy show
while I was waiting the one I wanted to see. So he came home with a
notebook he bought with the display broken. So he starts to mess with the
TV and I ask why is he looking for, after three times he mumbling
something he says he is looking for the s-video, and another three times
later, he finally say he is looking for it to connect the notebook, so he
"don't have to took the monitor" (my monitor from my desktop). I think
"you are going to took MY monitor if *I* give you permission for". I
counted until 30, than I turn to him and say "look, if you want to use my
things, I expect you at least tell me that. I want you to feel comfortabl=
e
and stuff, but I want you to ask me when you intend to use my things". So=
,
the self pity god give up the TV, go out for dinner, and when he come bac=
k
he stay in the kitchen, and for several days don't talk to me. That was
the thing that made me more angry, so this idiot stay in my house, messin=
g
with my things, taking my privacy away, and yet playing as the victim. A
week after, he finds some place else, and another week later, after
several times saying he would get things out and didn't appearing, he
finally come, get almost all his things and say "ok, I'm going", and then
goes. Without a "thank you". Well, at least I have my home back just for
me. Later on, I was thinking, he bought that notebook clearly thinking on
using my tv or monitor, and even asked for.

Two days after that, I receive a message from another not so close friend
asking for a place to stay, because "I just arrive in the city, there is
no vacancy in any hotel, I'm tired and hungry, I don't know anyone here,
please help me". I though, no, not again... so I started to ask, to find
out he came here to do a freelance for some company, and they forgot to
book hotels, they had look for "like 20 hotels" and finding nothing...
c'mon, in the third biggest city in the world? So I ask "and you don't
have a number from anyone on that company?" and he says "the manager is
here with me, we are trying to find a hotel but no success..." so I
quickly say "so you stay at his house". I even passed a link for some
cheap and clean hotels in here, and went to sleep. In the next day, I wak=
e
up and take a long shower, walked in the house using just my t-shirt,
listen the music I wanted in the volume I wanted, and my not so close
friend found a hotel and are ok.

I'm such a grownup now :D


--=20
Brain: Prepare yourself for your 15 minutes of fame
Pink: after that, can I have 15 minutes of macarena?
-------------------------------------------------------------
 =B0v=B0  Sulamita Garcia
/(_)\  LinuxChix Brasil
^ ^  http://sulamita.linuxchix.org.br/



From valoriez@zimres.net  Tue May  1 23:32:02 2007
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From: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:49:40 -0700
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On Sunday 29 April 2007 19:13, Sulamita Garcia wrote:
> > Homework: please share your best horror or success stories at dealing
> > with loved ones who want things from you.
>
> That is the hardest people to say no, yes. I had to learn to say "no Mom,
> I will not send more money to you pay rent for my brother and sister stay
> home doing nothing, I don't care, they can work".

Yay, Sulamita! That is a very hard one. I hope your brother and sister got the 
message!

::snip story of annoying "friend"::

> Two days after that, I receive a message from another not so close friend
> asking for a place to stay, because "I just arrive in the city, there is
> no vacancy in any hotel, I'm tired and hungry, I don't know anyone here,
> please help me". I though, no, not again... so I started to ask, to find
> out he came here to do a freelance for some company, and they forgot to
> book hotels, they had look for "like 20 hotels" and finding nothing...
> c'mon, in the third biggest city in the world? So I ask "and you don't
> have a number from anyone on that company?" and he says "the manager is
> here with me, we are trying to find a hotel but no success..." so I
> quickly say "so you stay at his house". I even passed a link for some
> cheap and clean hotels in here, and went to sleep. In the next day, I wake
> up and take a long shower, walked in the house using just my t-shirt,
> listen the music I wanted in the volume I wanted, and my not so close
> friend found a hotel and are ok.
>
> I'm such a grownup now :D

Hip, hip, hooray for you! I think this is so, so major. I love that you had 
the phone call, and *went to sleep.* I think your annoying "friend" -- who 
was not much of a friend, after all, maybe did you a service without knowing 
it. He annoyed you enough to stiffen your spine!

I hope your story will help each of us when we are faced with situations like 
this. Carla is right -- they are the hardest. Friends and families know our 
buttons, and how to push them for maximum effect.

Valorie

From wolfgrrl@bratgrrl.com  Thu May  3 05:44:06 2007
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From: Terry Hanson <wolfgrrl@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 22:43:47 -0700
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I have been a volunteer firefighter for six years. The only difference between 
us and paid firefighters is they get paychecks. We have to have all the same 
skills and training. We take our duties and public safety very seriously, and 
are proud to serve our communities. There is a lot of camaraderie and 
loyalty; it's like a family. So you can imagine how hard it was to leave my 
fire department and join a different one, because the good fire chief left 
and was replaced by an incompetent ass-kissing weasel. But I was afraid for 
my safety, and didn't want to waste my time on a department that would not 
invest in adequate training and recruiting. In fact Chief Weasel has a talent 
for attracting wife-beaters, thieves, and wannabe-felons. In a very short 
time, a first-class fire department has degenerated into a laughingstock, and 
a danger to public safety. Which don't seem to matter to the evil Ms. City 
Manager or Chief Weasel.

So I resigned last October, after being given an invitation by a neighboring 
fire department to join them.  I spend too much time considering my loyalty 
against my safety and friends on the department.  I apply at the other 
department, find out it's a "100% yes" vote to be a member, and get accepted.  
Since then, I have had training every week, I get to work with a first-class 
team, and I actually feel safe.

Meanwhile, back at the Chief Weasel ranch, conditions are dire. Two of my good 
friends, (husband and wife) that are still on the old dept., do nothing but 
complain to me and voice their concerns about safety and how the Weasel will 
not back them when they want any kind of professional training outside of the 
department, and they don't do any in-house either.  Boy do I remember this!  
I become a good sponge, listen to everything, let them vent.  I make 
suggestions,  nothing is done, I continue to listen and hold their hands.  
Finally, about two weeks ago, wife asks me to help them file a complaint to 
the right people.  She has a phone number to call, she and he are scared.  I 
say I will, I make the call, I'm referred to the proper people, I make 
complaint, get info, and get it back to H&W.  After all, I'm now an outsider, 
and it looks better coming from within the department.  Everything is 
guaranteed for confidentiality.

Is this a good time to mention that Weasel is also someone I have to work with 
on a professional level every day, and things are tense between us anyway 
because I quit his department, and he knows I think he sucks?  The same 
person I loaned money to to bring his son, wife, and baby over here from 
across the US, who skipped out, and I had to threaten with legal action to 
get paid back? (see lesson 5 for details)

OK, H & W now get scared of repercussions.  They own a business, small town, 
what will happen to them, what will happen to me since we work together, 
Weasel will know it's them, etc... I inform them that I'm still going through 
with it, w or w/o them, their safety issues also affect me and my department, 
I'm not worried about my job, and he will probably know anyway. I'm ready to 
drop them cold, ready to tell them not to make one more peeping complaint to 
me. They think it over a weekend.  On our next meeting, they inform me that 
they have taken first step and made the call. The person called is now on 
vacation for a week, but they have taken the first step. I let them know if 
they needed some support to let me know.  I feel something good will happen, 
some investigation into the problem of which neither Chief Weasel  nor evil 
Ms CM will listen to. I'm somewhat disappointed that nobody in the dept. was 
spineful enough to do something about it, but maybe, finally, the hose is  
starting to squirt some water.

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Thu May  3 18:22:48 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:22:29 -0700
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On Wednesday 02 May 2007 22:43, Terry Hanson wrote:
> I have been a volunteer firefighter for six years. The only difference
> between us and paid firefighters is they get paychecks. We have to have all
> the same skills and training. We take our duties and public safety very
> seriously, and are proud to serve our communities. There is a lot of
> camaraderie and loyalty; it's like a family. So you can imagine how hard it
> was to leave my fire department and join a different one, because the good
> fire chief left and was replaced by an incompetent ass-kissing weasel. But
> I was afraid for my safety, and didn't want to waste my time on a
> department that would not invest in adequate training and recruiting.

Yaay, I am so glad you posted this! Because this illustrates a problem that is 
more complicated than taking a personal stand on something- it involves 
getting other people to act. In this case, they asked you to help, then tried 
to dump everything on you and not take any action themselves. Ahem. Not cool. 
(disclosure: Terry is my awesome sweetheart, so I know the whole story.)

This story also relates to a decision that is one of the most difficult 
decisions to make- when do you bail, and when do you stay put and try to make 
conditions better? A lot of us feel duty-bound to stick out unpleasant 
situations to the bitter end. Or if we do leave an unhappy situation for 
something better, such as a job or a relationship, then we feel all guilty 
about it.

How do you decide whether to stay and try to improve a difficult situation, or 
write it off and move on? What are some criteria you can use to help figure 
it out? Why do we waste energy feeling guilty over finding good things for 
ourselves?

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: "Tracey C" <grrliegeek@elenari.net>
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Thanks to Terry and everyone else who has shared a story :) I've been
inspired!

On 5/3/07, Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:
>
> How do you decide whether to stay and try to improve a difficult
> situation, or
> write it off and move on? What are some criteria you can use to help
> figure
> it out? Why do we waste energy feeling guilty over finding good things for
> ourselves?
>

Like many of you, I've had to face this question with people who were
friends (like the one I wrote about, it wasn't an easy decision) and others
who were family members. It's of course been more difficult the closer I am
to the person who is becoming detrimental to be around. Hope springs eternal
in me, I *hate* giving up on most relationships. There's an exercise I found
helpful. That's to sit down and rationally list every advantage and
disadvantage on a sheet of paper in two columns. I would highlight the
really important things (and what's important is what's important to whoever
makes the list). That helps me get a thinking perspective on the issue in a
way where the emotions aren't as involved.  When I've chosen to put distance
between myself and someone else, or chosen to end the relationship, of
course I'm usually sad. With some people I've been pretty upset. I won't
waste too much time beating myself up, however. I had used all my faculties
to rationally look at the situation, considering needs and alternatives. I
trust in the decisions I have made. I let the sadness pass and get on with
life.

If it turns out that the list of negatives outweighs the positives, I will
strongly consider distancing myself from that person. If there is enough
positive left, then I will take a long look at my needs and what isn't being
met that is making me unhappy. With that, I will try to talk to the person
in question to let them know that I've been unhappy, list some factual
events that illustrate the problem (without blame or judgment) and let the
person know what I need them to do or not do. This method of bringing up
criticism was mentioned in "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense" and I
also learned it in a seminar years ago. It works with most people really
well :)

-- 
Tracey C

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Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 11:49:18 +0600
From: "Vid Ayer" <svaksha@gmail.com>
To: "Tracey C" <grrliegeek@elenari.net>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
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On 5/4/07, Tracey C <grrliegeek@elenari.net> wrote:
> There's an exercise I found
[... snip useful stuff ...]
> waste too much time beating myself up, however. I had used all my faculties
> to rationally look at the situation, considering needs and alternatives. I
> trust in the decisions I have made. I let the sadness pass and get on with
> life.

I have been practicing all that you said (except the writing part)
since my teens and "it works". I dont find it difficult to make tough
decisions and stick by it (even if  criticised), rather I have taken
it a circle further to encourage many people (family and friends) to
be more stronger emotionally. It brings a smile to my face when we
share the positive outcomes. The secret is to letgo of the sadness (or
any other emotion), remember that will pass with time. I believe there
is no right or wrong decision, its what is suitable to you, as an
individual. If it works ...great, or else you try again :)



>
> If it turns out that the list of negatives outweighs the positives, I will
> strongly consider distancing myself from that person. If there is enough

.... usually that person will want back in, while you have moved on.


-- 
Vid
http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/VidAyer

From wolfgrrl@bratgrrl.com  Tue May  8 15:49:30 2007
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From: Terry Hanson <wolfgrrl@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 08:49:11 -0700
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I've had rather an interesting experience with Sears 1-800 telephone 
specialists this past week.  It started on Sunday with trying to order a 
simple bra off of their .com website.  One price was shown, then it would 
jump to another much higher price.  I call the 800 number and get a female 
type voice that tries at first to find the same page I'm on, can't find what 
I have, and gets frustrated.  I ask for her super and this one has to confer 
with her super about my problem.  They tell me to fax them proof of what I'm 
seeing and they will take care of the problem. 

I do so on Monday and two days later I still haven't heard anything.  I call 
on Wednesday, get another female type voice that can't handle the situation, 
I ask for her supervisor, and this one actually starts to argue with me, 
interrupting me and telling me all about how their computer system works and 
that I need to click the refresh button because its been updated lalalala, 
and is getting downright rude with me.  I ask for her super.  I'm getting 
very frustrated by this time, but manage to keep my cool, however my voice 
drops to a quiet, kill you-die now tone.  This super  tells me to fax my info 
to her direct number, and she will take care of the problem. 

I do so on Thursday, along with many thanks and a line that states that if I 
do not hear from her by the end of the business day, I will contact CEO 
headquarters.  She has a full business day to take care of this.  I do not 
hear from her.  I wait throughout the weekend, and Tuesday I call HQ in 
Illinois.  They transfer me back to the original 800 number.  I call it 
again,  and a very friendly female type voice listens to my complaint, I tell 
her what I want, and she says...she says..."I can help you with that, I can 
take your order right now, and put in a request for credit to make up the 
difference!"

Wow!  Was that easy, or what?  I ask her if she is a super to be able to do 
this, and she says no, just someone who can't see where disagreeing with a 
customer over something as simple as this is helping anybody.  Her attitude 
about customer service was fantastic, my time with her took all of about 20 
minutes, and she even talked me into buying a separate item that I wanted 
because it had a good deal attached!  I commended her highly and thanked her, 
then asked to speak with her super, and told her why.  I wanted to tell her 
super that this helpful lady was one in a million with customer service.  I 
did so, and was assured that this lady would be recognized and put on their 
wall of fame. 

Finally after over a week of frustration, I have satisfaction knowing that a 
bit of spineful perserverence and time will work in your favor.

Terry

From valoriez@zimres.net  Wed May  9 21:21:01 2007
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From: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 23:37:43 -0700
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On Tuesday 08 May 2007 08:49, Terry Hanson wrote:
> I've had rather an interesting experience with Sears 1-800 telephone
> specialists this past week.  It started on Sunday with trying to order a
> simple bra off of their .com website.  One price was shown, then it would
> jump to another much higher price.  I call the 800 number and get a female
> type voice that tries at first to find the same page I'm on, can't find
> what I have, and gets frustrated.  I ask for her super and this one has to
> confer with her super about my problem.  They tell me to fax them proof of
> what I'm seeing and they will take care of the problem.
>
> I do so on Monday and two days later I still haven't heard anything.  I
> call on Wednesday, get another female type voice that can't handle the
> situation, I ask for her supervisor, and this one actually starts to argue
> with me, interrupting me and telling me all about how their computer system
> works and that I need to click the refresh button because its been updated
> lalalala, and is getting downright rude with me.  I ask for her super.  I'm
> getting very frustrated by this time, but manage to keep my cool, however
> my voice drops to a quiet, kill you-die now tone.  This super  tells me to
> fax my info to her direct number, and she will take care of the problem.
>
> I do so on Thursday, along with many thanks and a line that states that if
> I do not hear from her by the end of the business day, I will contact CEO
> headquarters.  She has a full business day to take care of this.  I do not
> hear from her.  I wait throughout the weekend, and Tuesday I call HQ in
> Illinois.  They transfer me back to the original 800 number.  I call it
> again,  and a very friendly female type voice listens to my complaint, I
> tell her what I want, and she says...she says..."I can help you with that,
> I can take your order right now, and put in a request for credit to make up
> the difference!"
>
> Wow!  Was that easy, or what?  I ask her if she is a super to be able to do
> this, and she says no, just someone who can't see where disagreeing with a
> customer over something as simple as this is helping anybody.  Her attitude
> about customer service was fantastic, my time with her took all of about 20
> minutes, and she even talked me into buying a separate item that I wanted
> because it had a good deal attached!  I commended her highly and thanked
> her, then asked to speak with her super, and told her why.  I wanted to
> tell her super that this helpful lady was one in a million with customer
> service.  I did so, and was assured that this lady would be recognized and
> put on their wall of fame.
>
> Finally after over a week of frustration, I have satisfaction knowing that
> a bit of spineful perserverence and time will work in your favor.
>
> Terry

I love that you used your assertiveness for Good, and not just to get your 
way. Although getting your own way is a good thing too!

Still reading along in _When I say no, I feel guilty_, I've come across the 
technique of negative inquiry, which actually can improve your relationship 
with a manipulative person. The chapter on communication is about *positive* 
assertiveness, not just protecting ourselves from the asshats and people with 
their hooks into our hides.

Have I said, I really like this book? Yeah, and I really like this course, 
too. Thanks to everyone who has been sharing their stories.

Valorie

From poppychix@gmail.com  Wed May  9 13:59:27 2007
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From: Poppy Lochridge <poppychix@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
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On May 8, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Terry Hanson wrote:

>
> I've had rather an interesting experience with Sears 1-800 telephone
> specialists this past week.  It started on Sunday with trying to  
> order a
>
>
>
> Finally after over a week of frustration, I have satisfaction  
> knowing that a
> bit of spineful perserverence and time will work in your favor.
>
> Terry

Terry's story reminds me of my latest headache.

A month ago, I ordered a studio light/umbrella kit from a well known  
mail-order shop. Since I'd had some trouble with their online  
ordering system before, I called and placed an order with their  
service department. The kit arrived, but when I started assembling  
it, it appeared that something was missing. I spent a few days  
checking the box for extra pieces and checking the picture of the  
assembled kit before contacting the store about the missing part. By  
the time I was ready to contact, it was after their closing time on  
Friday, so I sent the contact to their Customer Service email address.

I got two emails in response, one automated thanking me for my email,  
one which told me "Ok, we'll look into that and get back to you."

On Wednesday, five days later, after they hadn't "gotten back to me",  
I called the store, spoke with someone in lighting who agreed that I  
was missing a part, and told me which part it was. He sent me back  
over to Customer Service, where they told me that the issue had been  
escalated to a buyer, and I should wait for contact from the buyer  
later in the day.

After still no response, I called back in the following Sunday.  
Customer Service agent told me outright that the case had been sent  
to the buyer, the buyer was not available on Sunday to check the  
status of the case, and therefore, the only thing he could do for me  
was to send another email to the buyer asking him to follow up. I  
asked for a supervisor, but he told me that none were available. (It  
was around lunchtime in New York, so this was believable.) He also  
told me that talking to a supervisor wouldn't help me, as the  
supervisor doesn't have any other information available to them than  
he did.

It's been a week and a half since then, and I've called 2-3 more  
times. On one call, the CS rep told me that it looked like they were  
just shipping the part out to me, but he would find out and email me  
with the information. Still no contact.

Called this morning, and the rep checked with the buyer, who had him  
simply transfer the call. The part will be shipped out today and he  
will call my cell phone with tracking details when it goes out.

It may have taken three weeks of regular calls to them, but I'm  
finally getting the rest of my order.
(and the buyer says that I should have voice mail - which is  
possible, I've been in and out of the house so much in the last few  
days, I don't think we've checked for messages lately.)

--Poppy

From strangest@comcast.net  Mon Apr 30 02:51:52 2007
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>
> A few points I think worth pointing out here are:
>
> 1. Being compassionate and caring does not mean you are required to be a 
> sucker
> 2. If you make a mistake like this you are still entitled to a full recovery, 
> so you must be immune to any and all attempts at guilting and weaseling
> 3. It doesn't matter how well-off you are- when someone owes you something, 
> you are entitled to be paid back.
>
>   
Wow, thank you. I needed to hear this. I had a very similar experience 
to Terrys', only without the contract. Good friends only need verbal 
contracts, right? Oh man...what a mess.
I gave a friend and her child, and ultimately her bipolar, 
passive-aggressive, borderline-sick-and-violent-bastard man a place to 
stay for a while, in my home, with my family.
They had no money, so I gave them free room and board. Food was free, 
utilities were free, all things required to live were free. I also 
loaned her money in chunks, a hundred here, three hundred there, two 
thousand for her daughter's summer camp, three hundred for uninsured 
doctor's visits, etc. "How do I pay you back?" she asked each time. "Pay 
me back when you can. For now, save your money so that you can get 
settled on your own first. They repay me" was my continual response.
I bet you can guess what happened. Go ahead. Then scroll down.






















We evicted him first, because he was a danger to our children. She moved 
out six weeks later. I lobbed off that cancerous friendship as soon as 
she moved out. She conveniently forgot that she owed me money, ignored 
all of my requests and attempts to recover it in a happy-nice way. A 
attorney, who is also a friend of our family actually got disgusted when 
overhearing this news, and gave me advice on how to handle it. Soon 
afterward, I had legal papers served to her, demanding repayment. She 
got an attorney, who asked for proof of these loans. I dug up every bank 
record, check and ATM receipt I could find, and as it turns out, it 
added up to over $7000, twice as much as the number I had in my head. I 
benefited greatly from this requirement to provide proof, because it 
allowed me to raise the number.

As it turns out, locals here in this county know the trial judge in that 
county who handles such cases. I learned, without ever leaving my home, 
that if we take it to court, I'll get half back. So I settled for half, 
more than the original number I had in my head, and I was happy with 
that arrangement. I donated the money to a charity, and felt great about 
it.

The hardest part of all of this was trying to ask for the money back, 
from someone you don't want to speak to ever again. I try to be nice, 
they behave like an asshole, I feel badly. This cycle makes no sense, 
but I still did it repeatedly because I really didn't know better. I 
should have taken legal action much sooner, but I was a wimp. I didn't 
want to upset anyone, or cause problems. Screw that. It finally felt so 
good and so right when I took legal action that I wondered why I didn't 
do it sooner.

And what is up with the entitlement assumption Carla mentions? Why do 
these scumbags feel like they have a right to keep this money? Her 
official reason for not repaying was that she thought it was a gift, not 
a loan. Free room and board is a gift. Money you borrowed, then asked 
how to pay back, then got a direct response, is not a gift. That should 
be pretty damned clear. But you know this type of person, I am sure. Her 
opinions and beliefs change with the prevailing winds, as does her 
memory. Her supposedly temporary state of poverty and depression are the 
only constants. She's constantly jonesing for that savior, that person 
who will pull her out of her state of poverty, depression and 
helplessness. It's so easy to get sucked into this trap by someone whom 
you consider to be a friend, someone who seemingly has moments of 
clarity, potential to be and do more with her life, if only given the 
right opportunity. I am able to give this friend this opportunity, so 
it's the _necessary_ thing to do, right?

I am proud to say that our helpful family friends made it easier for me 
to recoup the lost money, and avoid flakes like this in the future. I 
have since 'de-flaked' myself. Any person who was in my life and 
repeatedly lied to either me or themselves is now out of my life. Life 
is so much nicer now. I still do loan money out to friends, and I've 
gotten it all back, without a hassle. I now strictly follow two rules 
regarding friends and money:
(1) If this friend has not been close friends with me on a regular 
basis, I may not know then as well as I think, and they may not qualify 
for this loan.
(2) My intuition is always right. When my intuitive senses say 'no', so 
do I.

Number 2 is the big one. I think we all possess the ability and power to 
know when we're about to make a huge mistake, but we ignore the signs 
and signals.

If you've read this down this far, thanks for taking the time to do so.  :)
Gloria






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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
From: Listpig <listpig@earthlink.net>
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Do you know, I don't know that that's quite the case (slacker assumptions).
I've run into this syndrome both working at home and working third shift.
It seems to me more that people assume that if you are not a) out in a
non-home place of business and b) that during "normal daylight business
hours", then you're "not doing anything important" and "utterly available."

In the case of working from home, obviously, they don't grok that that's
just as much "work" as if you had to go ride a bus half an hour to get to an
office.  In the case of night shift workers, they don't seem to grasp that
you really *do* have to sleep sometime, and people who work when they're
asleep don't get some sort of magic "sleep pill" to make up the difference.

 "But surely you can watch my kids all day, and then socialize with me all
evening, and then go to work at night, and then watch my kids again all day
tomorrow.....I really can't see where the problem is...."

--pig


On 4/29/07 19:21, "Carla Schroder" <carla@bratgrrl.com> wrote:

>  It seems that a lot
> of people have jobs that give them abundant free time to take care of
> personal business, so they assume that everyone's a slacker. Well I don't.
> But it took a bit of pain and almost-missed deadlines to get stern about it.



From margot@lawrence1961.f9.co.uk  Mon Apr 30 06:28:31 2007
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Carla Schroder wrote:
> 
> 1. Being compassionate and caring does not mean you are required to be a 
> sucker
> 2. If you make a mistake like this you are still entitled to a full recovery, 
> so you must be immune to any and all attempts at guilting and weaseling
> 3. It doesn't matter how well-off you are- when someone owes you something, 
> you are entitled to be paid back.
> 
> Number 3 is an especial peeve of mine. An awful lot of people have the idea 
> that anyone who is more prosperous than they are is required to share. A lot 
> of people have these weird, vague ideas that they are supposed to share 
> because it is "right". Well no, you're not required. It's your choice, and it 
> is entirely your right to say "no." 
> 
> Homework: please share your best horror or success stories at dealing with 
> loved ones who want things from you.
> 

Over the years, I have lost a lot of money (and a few friends) 
through lending to friends who then fail to repay.

A few years ago I adopted a new policy. I don't lend money to 
friends any more - instead, if I have it and they need it, I offer 
to give it to them. Yes, you read that right - GIVE, not LEND. I 
explain to them that I've had too many friendships turned sour by 
people not repaying loans, too much resentment built up, too many 
spreadsheets where I've calculated how much people actually owe me 
over the years and what marvellous things I could have (but probably 
wouldn't have!) done with that money if I had it back...

Only one has ever taken up the offer of a gift [1]. It seems that 
people who are perfectly happy to accept a "loan" with no intention 
of repaying it are NOT happy to accept a gift!

Does this make me a better person? Hmm, not sure. Does it save me 
money? Yes!

[1] My oldest friend, known since childhood, and a very small sum - 
enough for a week's worth of food for himself & his cat, to tide him 
over the period between his weekly-paid unemployment benefits ending 
and his new monthly-paid job paying him!

-- 
Margot

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From: "Tracey C" <grrliegeek@elenari.net>
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It's true, unfortuately, that if people find out you make more or have more
than them, the start asking for handouts. My husband started just not
talking about his salary after experiencing a few people who suddenly
started asking for loans or expecting him to support them in some way. He's
been a database admin and is now an IT manager, so some of you can relate.

This isn't a story about a loved one, it's a success story about a person I
used to work with. A guy started there and had moved back to Texas from
California after a long term relationship broke up. He had lost his car and
was looking for a place to live. Our supervisor asked around if someone
would be willing to drive him to & from work for about a month while he
looked for a car. After asking around a bit, I found that the guy's house
was not terribly far away from my commute, and I didn't live that far from
the office. It would only add 15 min to my drive. Realizing that there was
the chance that the guy would drag this out, I agreed to help him out.

The first week, he started telling me about the ex and his troubles, and by
the way he related the stories I realized that he was high drama. His focus
was not on overcoming difficulty but the pleasure of telling people about
his problems. This told me that he would probably drag on the free ride for
longer than a month. As a result, I politely asked him the first 2 weeks how
the car search was going. He told me about the car he wanted and price
range, and how much trouble it was trying to find exactly what he wanted. In
the third and fourth weeks, I got firm about asking what was happening with
the car search and not letting him fill the entire car ride with stories of
his ex. I was reminded of this during the thread about when guys think that
a woman is their free therapist.

He was the kind of guy that would make the pretense of being friendly to get
what he wanted. For example, one day he asked me if I wanted to eat lunch
with him outside because it was such a beautiful day. He really wanted to
eat lunch outside so he could smoke. I should have said no when he asked if
I minded, but at least I stuck up for myself with the bigger battle of the
rides to work. Of course, he continued to moan about his ex and his problems
during lunch. I stopped eating lunch with him. At one point he asked why I
was being so pushy about the new car. I told him it was because I had agreed
to the favor with the understanding that it would be about a month, and it
was looking like it would turn into a lot longer than that. He was pissy but
I held my ground.

During this time, he got snotty with me about being a couple of minute late
a few days, and took a scolding tone with me. I told him that I was doing
him a favor, and that if he didn't like it he could find someone else to
drive him in. He wound up getting someone else to drive him in, and it was
about another month before he got his car. The same guy that gave him rides
to work let him move in after his own mother kicked him out of her
apartment. It seems he hadn't paid his mother any money for bills but got a
very expensive stereo for his crappy car. He then abused the PC of the guy
who was letting him stay, installing all sorts of stuff and infecting the PC
with so much malware it wouldn't boot after a while. He was messy, and
didn't clean up after himself. He ran up the phone bill, and did other
generally rude things. So I'm very glad that I was firm about the rides to
work, and stopped listening to his sob stories.

-- 
Tracey C

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From: Poppy Lochridge <poppychix@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:07:51 -0700
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On Apr 29, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Carla Schroder wrote:

>
>
> Homework: please share your best horror or success stories at  
> dealing with
> loved ones who want things from you.
>

I almost think it should be enough here to state that I planned a  
wedding last year. There's enough hassles with loved ones involved in  
that to keep my fingers typing for a long time.

1) When we started looking at dresses about a year before the  
wedding, I selected my attendants. My husband and I had discussed it  
beforehand, and decided that we only wanted to have two attendants  
each to keep things small, so I selected my two oldest friends, women  
who have been with me through their divorces, my breakups, and moving  
all over the country.

My mother was horrified. She strongly felt that, since my sister-in- 
law had asked me to be one of her attendants when they got married, I  
should return the favor and just have three attendants so that no-one  
felt left out. I asked my sister-in-law, who told me she didn't feel  
left out and that I should do whatever seemed right to me.  
Ultimately, I told my mother flat out that I would find another role  
for my sister-in-law (who was one of my ushers and did a lot to keep  
the day moving smoothly), but my attendants had been selected. And  
then I had to tell my grandmother and aunt the same thing just as  
firmly before it was all understood.

2) Money. During the process of planning for the wedding, there was a  
fair amount of miscommunication over money. Hubby didn't know what  
weddings cost, and I didn't know that he didn't know. So he went into  
it with an attitude of "I'll spend this large bonus that I just got  
on new computer equipment, and when we need to pay for the wedding at  
the end of the summer, I'll just work a lot of overtime to make up  
the difference." That's about when I insisted that he sit down and  
look at the budget with me, so that we both understood how much it  
was going to take to pay for everything.

3) And unrelated, but the way Tracey phrased the opening to her email  
reminded me....  "It's true, unfortuately, that if people find out  
you make more or have more than them, the start asking for handouts."

I recently started a new job after being laid off from the job from  
hell. The new job pays significantly more than the job from hell did.  
When my husband found out what they were offering me, the first thing  
he did was tell his friends. No-one has come to either of us yet  
looking for handouts, but when he told me he'd told them all about my  
offer, I cringed. The damage was done, so being upfront with my  
discomfort about it didn't seem like it would get me anywhere, and I  
didn't say anything. I think now that maybe I should have.... and  
that it's not too late and I should say something now anyway.  
Granted, the worst that's happened is that they tease him about  
having a "sugar momma" now that I make more, and their teasing  
doesn't bother me.

--Poppy


From syleniel@gmail.com  Mon Apr 30 14:44:50 2007
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On 4/30/07, Poppy Lochridge <poppychix@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 29, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Carla Schroder wrote:
> When my husband found out what they were offering me, the first thing
> he did was tell his friends. No-one has come to either of us yet
> looking for handouts, but when he told me he'd told them all about my
> offer, I cringed. The damage was done, so being upfront with my
> discomfort about it didn't seem like it would get me anywhere, and I
> didn't say anything. I think now that maybe I should have.... and
> that it's not too late and I should say something now anyway.
> Granted, the worst that's happened is that they tease him about
> having a "sugar momma" now that I make more, and their teasing
> doesn't bother me.


It's certainly not too late to say something. While there's not really any
use in giving your husband grief about what's already been done, you can
tell him you'd rather not tell anyone else. You never know what might happen
if he tells someone else about your salary. At the least, it will help
communication issues between you because he'll know how you feel about that.
In a broad sense, he'll get to know you, and what you consider to be
confidential better. In a more specific sense, he's less likely to spill the
beans about your finances to people in the future. :)


-- 
Tracey C

From linda@meridian-ds.com  Mon Apr 30 14:55:58 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
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Because this is a publicly accessible, archived list, I'm going to be
very general.

I have a family member who has no financial responsibility. My husband
and I borrowed money from his mother a few years ago (when we had two
mortgages due to an interstate transfer, and I was in college) to pay
off all their debts because they couldn't make ends meet.

Fast forward about 5 years to when they *finally* started paying. Not a
lot, but they were making an effort which is all that mattered. We had
made regular payments to his mother for a couple of years before she
forgave the remainder of the debt. That had been our plan for the
borrower all along as well. As long as there was a good faith effort
made to repay, we would forgive the majority of the money.

Fast forward another year or so. Husband and I had had numerous
conversations about any new request for money from said family member.
We had agreed that we would talk about any new request and chances are
the answer would be no. Our financial situation had improved
dramatically, but we were still trying to pay off all the bills prior to
his retirement. We were (and still are) also working hard to build a
cushion in case I was laid off or something else happened.

During a lunch (without me), he was boo-hoo'd to and begged for money.
He wrote a check on the spot for $1K.

He didn't realize until I spelled it out about a year later that the
entire weekend, during which I said maybe three words to him, I was
deciding whether to leave him or kick him out or stay. The issue really
wasn't the money - we had it - it was the betrayal of our agreement.

A couple of months ago we forgave the entire remaining balance, just as
we had planned. During the years between the original loan and then,
there had been further foolish financial decisions, a re-establishment
of debt to the point they can't make ends meet again, and one member of
the couple still will not go to work. I think he believes me now about
not giving them any more. The answer is simply no.

To further complicate things, the same family member treats me like
shit. Husband says I should blow it off, she treats everyone that way. I
finally put my foot down about a year ago and said I would no longer
attend events she was at. I'm sorry - someone who watches me like a hawk
to see if I'll say or do something that "offends" her so she can be
condescending, rude, and speak to me as if I'm one of her children is
simply not going to be involved in my world any more if I can help it.
He thinks I should just put up with it for the sake of "keeping the
peace." I did that for 12 years. I bent over backwards (or forward,
depending on how crude you want to be) to keep from doing or saying
something she could get bitchy about. It didn't matter. She tells him
how upset she is I won't attend any functions and really wants to know
what's wrong. But she hasn't contacted me about it yet.

So much for being terribly upset.

On the other hand, I don't dread holidays any longer. I don't get
physically ill the day of events because I'm so up tight about having to
deal with it and try to be someone I'm not. While I'm sorry to miss out
on some of the events, I'm not sorry enough to put myself through that
any longer.

Could I confront her? Sure. But I'm not going to. The fact is we're
different people with diametrically opposed belief systems and views of
the world. I know and like many other people who also fit that
description, but they're not dogmatic and rude about it. I don't subject
myself to other people who treat me that way. I see no reason to do so
just because this person is "family".

It's one of the hardest things I've ever done, but I'm very glad I did
it. My life has improved. I'm not faking being someone I'm not. All
around - it was spineful and I hope I can continue to stand up for *me*
more often.

LP




From kmactane@gothpunk.com  Mon Apr 30 16:41:37 2007
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Linda Pahdoco wrote:
> I'm sorry - someone who watches me like a hawk
> to see if I'll say or do something that "offends" her so she can be
> condescending, rude, and speak to me as if I'm one of her children is
> simply not going to be involved in my world any more if I can help it.
> He thinks I should just put up with it for the sake of "keeping the
> peace."

It sounds like "keeping the peace" hasn't worked, because *she* keeps 
starting problems. I mean, if this woman's going to make a conflict *no 
matter what*, then why not let her have her conflict, and not be 
involved at all (i.e., what you're doing)?

> I did that for 12 years. I bent over backwards (or forward,
> depending on how crude you want to be) to keep from doing or saying
> something she could get bitchy about. It didn't matter.

Right, she always found something to bitch about anyway. Well, now she 
still has something to bitch about, but you don't have to deal with the 
bitching.

Sounds like a win to me.
                                                 --Kai MacTane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I hear the roar of a big machine,
  Two worlds and in between;
  Hot metal and methedrine.
  I hear your empire down."
                                                 --Sisters of Mercy,
                                                  "Lucretia, My
                                                   Reflection"


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On 4/30/07, Kai MacTane <kmactane@gothpunk.com> wrote:
>
> Right, she always found something to bitch about anyway. Well, now she
> still has something to bitch about, but you don't have to deal with the
> bitching.
>
> Sounds like a win to me.


What a great way of putting that. I just had a similar situation happen with
a friend I've known for a few years and have done pretty much the same
thing. She had issues with some of the comments I have made over time (I'm a
Brooklyn girl, I can be rather blunt). I had issues with her criticizing and
being judgmental about a lot of what I did (things as simple as sitting on a
particular chair).  Rather than talking to me about this when she first
started having issues months ago, she bitched about it to everyone but me.
It finally came to a boiling point & we talked it over a few months ago, We
both agreed to certain changes.

A month or so later, she was still bitching to people. She bitched at me
when I sent her an e-mail I had sent a bunch of people saying I was busy but
was still thinking about them, saying I never got in touch. (Yeah, she
bitched about me not getting in touch when I got in touch). She wrote me two
really nasty e-mails that I consider to be verbally abusive, basically
writing me off. Since she was bitching no matter what I did, I let her write
me off. I'm the third person in the last few years she got bullyish and
nasty to and then wrote off. Just as Kai describes, she is going to complain
no matter what, so why not let her do it way over there? If she gets over
the bullying and bitching, I'm willing to try to reconcile. Until then, I'm
happy to have her out of my hair.


-- 
Tracey C

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From: "Valerie Henson" <val.henson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
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On 4/30/07, Poppy Lochridge <poppychix@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I recently started a new job after being laid off from the job from
> hell. The new job pays significantly more than the job from hell did.
> When my husband found out what they were offering me, the first thing
> he did was tell his friends. No-one has come to either of us yet
> looking for handouts, but when he told me he'd told them all about my
> offer, I cringed. The damage was done, so being upfront with my
> discomfort about it didn't seem like it would get me anywhere, and I
> didn't say anything. I think now that maybe I should have.... and
> that it's not too late and I should say something now anyway.
> Granted, the worst that's happened is that they tease him about
> having a "sugar momma" now that I make more, and their teasing
> doesn't bother me.

Congratulations on getting a much better job that pays well too!  I
think it's wonderful - and feminist - that your husband was so proud
of you that he told all his friends.  When I was last in your
situation, my boyfriend got incredibly insecure and mean after I got
my new job, and we broke up instead. :) More than likely, knowing
about your experience and your great new job (with great new salary)
will inspire your friends, female and male, to go out and look for
more satisfying jobs.  Enjoy being an example!

-VAL

From terri@zone12.com  Mon Apr 30 16:14:40 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:14:16 -0400
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On 29-Apr-07, at 8:21 PM, Carla Schroder wrote:
> Because I work at home I've had a lot of practice at being the broken
> record- "No, I cannot do that now because I AM WORKING." It seems  
> that a lot
> of people have jobs that give them abundant free time to take care of
> personal business, so they assume that everyone's a slacker. Well I  
> don't.

I've had this problem with working at home too.  The worst being a  
case when a friend showed up 3 hours early for a party at my place.   
What made it even more annoying is that I'd specifically said in the  
party invite that I was inviting people over later than usual because  
I had errands to run in the morning and I would want to work late to  
compensate.  I was Not Impressed when he turned up before I was done  
working or had time for dinner, and I sent him away.

Everyone else I know has always phoned in advance if they're going to  
be early to check and see if that's ok (sometimes it is, sometimes it  
isn't), and he hasn't done it since.

  Terri




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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 5: The Hardest Nos]
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On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 12:14:16PM -0400, Terri Oda wrote:
> I've had this problem with working at home too.  The worst being a  
> case when a friend showed up 3 hours early for a party at my place.   

Heh, if someone turned up 3 hours early for a party at my place, I'd put
them to work, get them to help set up the party. In my book, turning up
anything more than 15 minutes early means that you're a volunteer
helper. (grin)
Though for you that wouldn't have worked, since presumably they would
have needed supervision, and you needed people out of your hair in order
to work.

> compensate.  I was Not Impressed when he turned up before I was done  
> working or had time for dinner, and I sent him away.

Good for you.  Very Spineful. 8-)
 
Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From mary@home.puzzling.org  Mon Apr 30 22:23:12 2007
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From: Mary Gardiner <mary@puzzling.org>
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Just sending this out because I'm worried that not everyone knows this,
and the current course contains personal stories.

All email to the courses list is *publicly archived*. That means anyone
at all can head on over to
http://mailman.linuxchix.org/pipermail/courses/ and check out the emails
sent to the list. Search engines will also find that info, and so
courses posts under your name may come up if anyone searches for you on
a search engine.

If you are not comfortable with this, the easiest thing to do probably
is post under a name that won't usually get searched for. (People in the
current course probably want to think about their spineful living goals
and how the choice between using their usual name or a pseudonym fits
in with that!)

-Mary

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sat May 12 02:45:55 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
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Today's lesson is a bit of a detour, though it still fits our overall theme=
 of=20
having the courage to do the right thing, whether it's for ourselves or for=
=20
someone else.

When a friend or acquaintance is dealing with an illness or death in the=20
family, we don't always know what to do. So we do dumb things and say dumb=
=20
things and squirm uncomfortably, or avoid the situation entirely, and then=
=20
bruise our behinds with self-kicking.

This is all understandable, and unnecessary. There are a few basic rules th=
at=20
cover all occasions; keep these in mind and you'll always know what to do.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DGood things to say to friends:

I am so very sorry
Would you like to talk about it?
I'm here for you
If you need anything at all, call me

A nice thing to do on IRC is to deliver hugs:

/me sends hugs
{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DGood things to do for friends:

Take quiet charge of small chores. Shine shoes, wash the car, mow the lawn,=
=20
cook some meals, feed the livestock, put away food brought by other people.=
=20
Just do them; no need to pester them with endless questions about what to d=
o.

Keep up your regular invitations to activities. You might get turned down a=
=20
lot, but don't stop.

Make an extra effort to maintain contact. Send a nice card every so often,=
=20
call, email, visit. What do you say? It doesn't have to be anything=20
grand- "I'm thinking of you. I'm here for you. How are you doing? What do y=
ou=20
need?" Be patient and quiet, and make an extra effort to be a good listener.

Hugs are always wonderful. So are handsclasps, and a friendly hand on the=20
shoulder. Make firm, purposeful contact; nervous patting is for non-spinefu=
l=20
people. :)

People often withdraw or become distracted in hard times. Don't take it=20
personally, just be patient and know it's not about you.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DGood things to say to acquaintances:

I am so very sorry.=20
My thoughts are with you.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DWhat not to say:

I know how you feel
Things happen for a reason
You need to find closure
At least she is no longer in pain
You need to move forward
Time heals all wounds
If that happened to me, I=E2=80=99d just die

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DWhat not to do:

Don't give advice
Don't share your latest miracle cures
Don't treat people like they are dimwits who know nothing and can't run the=
ir=20
own lives.=20
The last thing anyone dealing with illness or death needs is to have to fen=
d=20
off well-meaning friends bombarding them with "you must do this" jive. You=
=20
want to be a support and a help, not a pest.

Remember that this is not about you.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DExecutive summary

"I'm sorry" and a big hug, and keeping in touch pretty much covers it. Ther=
e=20
aren't any big heroic deeds we can do; it's the little things that matter-=
=20
being there and letting them know you care.




=2D-=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook!=20
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun May 13 01:44:45 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 18:44:12 -0700
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On Friday 11 May 2007 19:45, Carla Schroder wrote:
> ======Executive summary
>
> "I'm sorry" and a big hug, and keeping in touch pretty much covers it.
> There aren't any big heroic deeds we can do; it's the little things that
> matter- being there and letting them know you care.

I forgot to mention that core notion here is "allow people to have their 
feelings." I don't know how it is in other countries; in the US it's almost a 
crime to express any feelings but happy happy joy joy. So when someone is 
grieving well-meaning friends try to cheer them up, or otherwise minimize 
their sad feelings. It is kinder and more supportive to simply be there and 
not try to be all jolly or to fix everything.
 
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From valoriez@zimres.net  Sun May 13 10:17:34 2007
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From: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 19:55:59 -0700
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On Saturday 12 May 2007 18:44, Carla Schroder wrote:
> On Friday 11 May 2007 19:45, Carla Schroder wrote:
> > ======Executive summary
> >
> > "I'm sorry" and a big hug, and keeping in touch pretty much covers it.
> > There aren't any big heroic deeds we can do; it's the little things that
> > matter- being there and letting them know you care.
>
> I forgot to mention that core notion here is "allow people to have their
> feelings." I don't know how it is in other countries; in the US it's almost
> a crime to express any feelings but happy happy joy joy. So when someone is
> grieving well-meaning friends try to cheer them up, or otherwise minimize
> their sad feelings. It is kinder and more supportive to simply be there and
> not try to be all jolly or to fix everything.

A young friend of mine lost his mother to a heart-attack last summer, a few 
weeks before the beginning of his new college term for. He had come out as 
gay a few months before that, so was already in a fragile state. 

He *kept apologizing* for his sadness and depression. I really couldn't 
believe it. I gave him lots of long-distant hugs, and offered to talk on the 
phone any time, day or night, and kept assuring him that grieving is an 
honoring of the one you have lost, as well as healthy and normal and 
inevitable. I think this brainwashing of "cry at the funeral and get over it" 
is subtly all over our culture. 

We need to spread the word that grief is normal, natural, and GOOD. You grieve 
for as long as you grieve -- there is no normal. And it is important. People 
need to take the time they need, and helpful friends and family will help 
them to do that, in any way they can.

Grieving people with a spine can help their friends and families by being open 
about their feelings, and saying things like "I'm missing my mom a lot today. 
How are things with you?" instead of covering up their grief and pretending 
that they aren't feeling sad or angry. Comforters with a spine can accept the 
feelings the grief-stricken person expresses, without trying to "fix" them.

Thanks for bringing up this important subject, Carla. Sorrow is a part of 
life, and life is good. :-)

Valorie, who just got back from putting flowers on her mom's grave for 
Mother's Day

From rsvidal@terra.com.br  Tue May 15 22:19:19 2007
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From: Renata Vidal <rsvidal@terra.com.br>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
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I'm so late about our lessons, I just do 1 and 2, and now 6. Its very good for me read this things, Its so closer my reality with tech support.....
Here in Brazil, we are know as a very happy people. When someone need to deal  with an illness or death in the family is so hard...
I usually withdrew with myself. I have difficulty to deal with it because I deal with  illnesses and death many times in my family. So, when I see something like it I runaway, because I start to cry and cry and cry.....
Its not usually to a woman hide their feelings, but I dont know why I'm this way... I thing I learn with the men to hide my feelings (I really dont know....)


Sorry for my poor english....



From valoriez@zimres.net  Wed May 16 22:04:28 2007
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From: Valorie Zimmerman <valoriez@zimres.net>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 14:59:05 -0700
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On Tuesday 15 May 2007 14:57, Renata Vidal wrote:
> I'm so late about our lessons, I just do 1 and 2, and now 6. Its very good
> for me read this things, Its so closer my reality with tech support.....
> Here in Brazil, we are know as a very happy people. When someone need to
> deal  with an illness or death in the family is so hard...

While we Americans are not known so much for our happiness, we aren't open to 
grief or sadness, either. In Victorian times, death, dying, grief and sadness 
seemed to be the norm, maybe because Queen Victoria literally cast a pall 
over the English-speaking world for so many years. Perhaps people rebelled 
from that -- but threw out an important part of daily life.

> I usually 
> withdrew with myself. I have difficulty to deal with it because I deal with
>  illnesses and death many times in my family. So, when I see something like
> it I runaway, because I start to cry and cry and cry..... Its not usually
> to a woman hide their feelings, but I dont know why I'm this way... I thing
> I learn with the men to hide my feelings (I really dont know....)

One thing I've noticed over my lifetime, is that it has become more OK for 
women to express formerly "male" emotions and patterns such as 
aggressiveness, ambition, work-a-holic habits, sexual boldness. However, true 
assertiveness would allow us to express our softer side, too -- love, 
sympathy, vulnerability, grief, sadness. These are still *not allowed* in 
public culture, because they are seen as weak. We can only be strong.

In my opinion, that is wrong -- we are both. Being assertive means that we can 
be genuine, and feel our feelings, express our feelings, and be OK with that. 
It's a journey.

> Sorry for my poor english....

If you expressed your thoughts and ideas as you wished, not a problem! Thanks 
for sharing.

Valorie

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Thu May 17 04:33:56 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 21:32:53 -0700
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On Tuesday 15 May 2007 14:57, Renata Vidal wrote:
> Here in Brazil, we are know as a very happy people. When someone need to
> deal =A0with an illness or death in the family is so hard... I usually
> withdrew with myself. I have difficulty to deal with it because I deal wi=
th
> =A0illnesses and death many times in my family. So, when I see something =
like
> it I runaway, because I start to cry and cry and cry..... Its not usually
> to a woman hide their feelings, but I dont know why I'm this way... I thi=
ng
> I learn with the men to hide my feelings (I really dont know....)

It sounds like the US does not have a monopoly on telling people what they=
=20
should be feeling! I wonder how this sort of thing came about. To me it's=20
akin to denying our worth as humans. There is no such thing as "right"=20
or "wrong" feelings; they are what they are. What we do about them is a=20
separate decision; but denying them in the first place seems wrong, even=20
cruel.

=2D-=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook!=20
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Thu May 17 05:04:38 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
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On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 09:32:53PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> It sounds like the US does not have a monopoly on telling people what they 
> should be feeling! I wonder how this sort of thing came about. To me it's 
> akin to denying our worth as humans. There is no such thing as "right" 
> or "wrong" feelings; they are what they are. What we do about them is a 
> separate decision; but denying them in the first place seems wrong, even 
> cruel.

I think, in cultures where people assume that the loved one has gone to
Heaven (or equivalent), there is an attitude by those who haven't
experienced the death of a loved one, that one isn't supposed to grieve
for the death of a loved one, because that shows a "lack of faith".  As
if the grief was caused by a fear that the loved one isn't in heaven, or
a disbelief that Heaven is better than Earth, but that's not it at all.

We grieve because *we miss them terribly*.  They aren't there with us
any more.  It doesn't matter if the parting is temporary or permanent,
it is still a parting, and it *hurts*.  Okay, so if one has a faith, one
has a hope mixed in there (there's the "faith") but to deny the pain
that one is feeling, is to deny the love that one had for the person who
is gone.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From mary@home.puzzling.org  Sun May 13 02:12:15 2007
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From: Mary Gardiner <mary@puzzling.org>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
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On Fri, May 11, 2007, Carla Schroder wrote:
> Take quiet charge of small chores. Shine shoes, wash the car, mow the
> lawn, cook some meals, feed the livestock, put away food brought by
> other people.  Just do them; no need to pester them with endless
> questions about what to do.

Also helpful is respite for anyone grieving who has dependents (children,
elderly or disabled dependents, pets). At times the need to look after
the dependents can be helpful to them (got to get out of bed today
because the kids can't miss school), other times it adds to the burden.

In the event of a death, if you are fairly close to the surviving kin,
there are a lot of death related chores that you can help with too, if
you have a head for bureaucracies. Just as people's cognitive capacities
are shot through with grief (grief makes you more confused and hurts
your memory and concentration span), they have to deal with a lot of
paperwork.

If you've dealt with death before or are an organised papertrail chaser,
you can help out with: passing on news of the death; dealing with the
undertaker/funeral director, particularly details like payments and
times (the survivor may want to deal with the ceremony itself!); getting
the immense number of death certificate copies usually required (many
institutions like banks will only take originals); calling up banks, tax
officials, utilities and so on and figuring out how to have everything
switched into the next of kin's name; calling up retirement funds and lif=
e
insurance policies held in the dead person's name and figuring out how
to release the funds in them; getting the executor of the will in touch
with a lawyer who can help them execute it.

As Carla says, it's better to step in and assume the cognitive load of
deciding to do this stuff rather than saying "is there any paperwork you
need done? just call!" but you'll probably have to ask a few questions
of them about it.

> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DWhat not to say:
>=20
> I know how you feel
> Things happen for a reason
> You need to find closure
> At least she is no longer in pain
> You need to move forward
> Time heals all wounds
> If that happened to me, I=E2=80=99d just die

Be a little bit careful with leading questions trying to get them to
talk too. The question I dread most after deaths of loved ones is "How
was the funeral?" Why? Because I have no idea what the expected answer
is. "Sad"? "OK"? "Catholic"? "Long"? (Also, as a former pallbearer:
don't, for goodness sake, ask questions of the pallbearers about how
heavy the coffin was. If you want to know this, get a person to lie down
on a bit of wood and have a few people help you carry them around. Same
for scientifically minded questions about the deathbed scene asked becaus=
e
you're curious about what it's really like to watch someone die. Just
don't. That's for them to bring up.)

-Mary

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun May 13 02:49:29 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 19:48:57 -0700
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On Saturday 12 May 2007 19:11, Mary Gardiner wrote:
> "How
> was the funeral?"

The clowns and ponies were awesome, but the magician was a bit disappointing.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From rudy@grumpydevil.homelinux.org  Sun May 13 08:25:19 2007
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
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Mary Gardiner wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2007, Carla Schroder wrote:
>  =20
>> Take quiet charge of small chores. Shine shoes, wash the car, mow the
>> lawn, cook some meals, feed the livestock, put away food brought by
>> other people.  Just do them; no need to pester them with endless
>> questions about what to do.
>>    =20
>
> Also helpful is respite for anyone grieving who has dependents (childre=
n,
> elderly or disabled dependents, pets). At times the need to look after
> the dependents can be helpful to them (got to get out of bed today
> because the kids can't miss school), other times it adds to the burden.
>
> In the event of a death, if you are fairly close to the surviving kin,
> there are a lot of death related chores that you can help with too, if
> you have a head for bureaucracies. Just as people's cognitive capacitie=
s
> are shot through with grief (grief makes you more confused and hurts
> your memory and concentration span), they have to deal with a lot of
> paperwork.
>
> If you've dealt with death before or are an organised papertrail chaser=
,
> you can help out with: passing on news of the death; dealing with the
> undertaker/funeral director, particularly details like payments and
> times (the survivor may want to deal with the ceremony itself!);
Those are indeed urgent, except for the payments themselves, which=20
usually have a several weeks delay (at least here they do)

I would indeed be very, very careful with stepping into the organisation=20
of the ceremony itself. That REALLY needs a direct question from the=20
kin's themselves! I personally would have gotten extremely angry at=20
someone stepping into the organization of mom's or dad's burial ceremony=20
without at least asking, and even then..... With Dad's burial even more,=20
as he had instructed us the ceremony to be "like mom's".
>  getting
> the immense number of death certificate copies usually required (many
> institutions like banks will only take originals);
Yup, this is not urgent though. At least not in NL. They often get news=20
via the official channel anyway, and will without any prompting block an=20
account till kin shows up with instructions. To be able to give those=20
instructions, its useful to have a declaration of inheritance (most=20
financial institutions will need this, and will take no action without=20
it). This declaration can only be arranged from a notary by those who=20
inherit. hint: in the case you have a working access to the account(s),=20
do not inform the bank with the main account(s), makes life easier to=20
handle the financial work..  for a while. hint 2: do this only if all=20
inheritors agree to way of working, and there is no fight amongst those=20
that inherit. hint 3: if you notice that the next of kin have an=20
internal fight (sigh, it happens too often. We have a "saying" here in=20
the form of a question, "have they split an inheritance yet?" asked when=20
somebody says that such and so family is so harmonious ). DO NOT=20
INTERFERE in such a fight, unless you know exactly what you are doing.

>  calling up banks, tax
> officials, utilities and so on and figuring out how to have everything
> switched into the next of kin's name; calling up retirement funds and l=
ife
> insurance policies held in the dead person's name and figuring out how
> to release the funds in them; getting the executor of the will in touch
> with a lawyer who can help them execute it.
>  =20
Those are good suggestions. We were lucky in that the undertaker gave us=20
an address of a professional organization that will assist in this type=20
of things. Did not need it though.
> As Carla says, it's better to step in and assume the cognitive load of
> deciding to do this stuff rather than saying "is there any paperwork yo=
u
> need done? just call!" but you'll probably have to ask a few questions
> of them about it.
>
>  =20
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DWhat not to say:
>>
>> I know how you feel
>> Things happen for a reason
>> You need to find closure
>> At least she is no longer in pain
>> You need to move forward
>> Time heals all wounds
>> If that happened to me, I=E2=80=99d just die
>>    =20
>
> Be a little bit careful with leading questions trying to get them to
> talk too. The question I dread most after deaths of loved ones is "How
> was the funeral?" Why? Because I have no idea what the expected answer
> is. "Sad"? "OK"? "Catholic"? "Long"? (Also, as a former pallbearer:
> don't, for goodness sake, ask questions of the pallbearers about how
> heavy the coffin was. If you want to know this, get a person to lie dow=
n
> on a bit of wood and have a few people help you carry them around.=20
Good suggestion. We children were the pallbearers for both our parents,=20
and happy to do so. Glad nobody asked such questions... They are=20
completely out of line.
Although this is highly personal, i personally found it very helping in=20
coping with the grief to help close the coffin. That and pall bearing=20
helps in a physical manner to say goodbye.
> Same
> for scientifically minded questions about the deathbed scene asked beca=
use
> you're curious about what it's really like to watch someone die. Just
> don't. That's for them to bring up.)
>  =20

Actually, any scientifically minded question is out of line. Just do not=20
ask.

Rudy
> -Mary
>  =20


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Mary Gardiner wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2007, Carla Schroder wrote:
>  =20
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DWhat not to say:
>>
>> I know how you feel
>> Things happen for a reason
>> You need to find closure
>>    =20
<dirtly look> Oh really? [for all of the above]
>> At least she is no longer in pain
>>    =20
Even though this can be consensus, stay away unless brought up by next=20
of kin.
We knew father was dying for two weeks, and the last week was=20
essentially a week long deathbed.
Be aware that in such cases, a internal family discussion can rage about=20
the type of care of provide: only care to soften pain, or full-out=20
trying to save? Or something in between? Dad had clearly indicated=20
enough was enough, he did not want another hospital visit. Even so,=20
there was internal family discussion on this which only resolved itself=20
two years after the burial.

>> You need to move forward
>> Time heals all wounds
>> If that happened to me, I=E2=80=99d just die
>>    =20
please go ahead, just so you stop bugging me.

Rudy


From akkana@shallowsky.com  Sun May 13 03:54:54 2007
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From: Akkana Peck <akkana@shallowsky.com>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 6: Grief Support]
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Carla Schroder writes [a great posting, including:]
> ======What not to say:
> 
> I know how you feel
> Things happen for a reason
> You need to find closure
> At least she is no longer in pain
> You need to move forward
> Time heals all wounds
> If that happened to me, I'd just die
> 
> ======What not to do:
[ ... ]
> The last thing anyone dealing with illness or death needs is to have to fend 
> off well-meaning friends bombarding them with "you must do this" jive. You 
> want to be a support and a help, not a pest.

This reminded me of a great scene from a Connie Willis book called
"Passage". It's a fiction book, with a lot of humor in it, despite
what you might think from the title given in this context.

(Mild spoiler alert.)

Richard has just experienced a traumatic loss, and his coworkers are
all pestering him constantly to see this great grief counselor they
know, or to read self-help books like "Seven Mourning Strategies"
and "Eight Great Grief Helps" and "Words of Comfort for Trying
Times" (quoting lines like "God never sends you more than you can
bear"). It's all making him feel even worse.  Then he gets a visit
from a stranger, a young, fragile looking woman who says she was a
friend of the deceased and needs to give him a book.

  "Oh, of course, a book," he said viciously. "The answer to
  everything. What's this one? 'Five Easy Steps to Forgetting'?"

  He didn't know what he'd expected. That she would look hurt and
  surprised, tears welling up in her eyes, that she would slam the
  book down and tell him to go to hell?

  She did neither. She looked quietly at him, no trace of tears in
  her eyes, and then, in a conversational tone, said, "I slapped my
  aunt Martha. When my fiance died. She told me God needed him in
  heaven, and I hauled off and slapped her, a sixty year old woman.
  They said I was half out of my mind with grief, that I didn't know
  what I was doing, but it wasn't true. People say unbelievable
  things to you. They deserve slapping."

There's more (she has some scathing things to say about people who
say "You'll get over it"), but you get the idea.

I never know what to say. I certainly don't know what someone else
feels. Even if I've gone through grief myself, every situation is
different, and thinking I could know what someone else is feeling
at a time like that would be fooling myself.

I know I'm saving the messages from this lesson, and will try to
remember them when it counts. Thanks for the thoughtful posting,
Carla, and the thoughtful replies from Mary and others.

        ...Akkana

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Sun May 27 20:04:37 2007
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Subject: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....]
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Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....

Even in my old age, it still surprises me how often people like to think they 
know everything about me, and feel free to say the most obnoxious things. 
Like when I was shopping for property a few years ago. As soon as the sellers 
or real estate agents learned I was from the Big City, they assumed I was 
this dumbass city slicker with too much money and a predictable set of dumb 
attitudes and beliefs about rural life. So I kept hearing crap like "well, 
it's not what you're used to" and "This is a special price just for you!" 
(Yeah, much higher.) I wish I had set them straight at the time, but I 
didn't. How could they possibly know what I was used to? It's rather 
mind-boggling as I look back on that- they never heard of people having 
actual life experiences?

Terry told me a tale once upon a time of a co-worker who was ranting on about 
some personal problem, and she tells Terry "You have no idea what it's like 
raising children!" Terry told her "Um, I raised three boys", which took the 
wind out of her sails. For a little while, anyway. I'm always amazed at 
the "You have no idea what it's like!" type of statements- I always get stuck 
on the sheer proud ignorance of statements like that, and never respond in a 
satisfactory way.

When do you correct people's incorrect assumptions, and when do you let them 
slide? I tend to not make an issue of it, because I'm usually thinking of a 
hundred other things and I think it's not worth trying to educate idiots. OK, 
so it's not a very complimentary attitude towards other people, and later I 
often regret that I didn't say something. So I'm consciously working to set 
people straight more often when they make stupid assumptions, rather than 
letting it slide.

Women in tech bump into dopey assumptions constantly. We're here with our 
boyfriends, or we're dying to spend half a day listening to some long-winded 
geek expound on his favorite subjects, or we can't possibly have any skills 
or knowledge of our own, or we're just dying to mate with whatever 
socially-challenged ickwit succeeds in cornering us. Come to think of it, 
that's common in most of life. But I digress. Here are a few assumptions that 
I encounter on a regular basis:

- When I fly an American flag, that means I am a rightwingnut patriot of the 
icky kind
- Where's my husband?
- Oh, teehee you're gay. That means this other stuff then! (mostly wrong, 
though if they want to believe I'm mean and shouldn't be messed with, that's 
OK. Them tuff dykes, ya know)
- I write computer howtos, so I'm eager to listen to people rant about all the 
things they hate about computers (which all boils down to 'too lazy and 
unwilling to learn')

So this week's assignment is what assumptions do you encounter, and what do 
you do about them? Is it worth correcting people when they assume wrong 
things about you, or is it akin to teaching pigs to sing? Does it benefit you 
it ways other than you're not kicking yourself later for not responding?
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From strangest@comcast.net  Mon May 28 18:34:38 2007
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Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 14:28:10 -0400
From: Gloria W <strangest@comcast.net>
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People make incorrect assumptions about everything about me, because I 
don't fit cleanly into any one stereotype.
I've reached the point where I don't really care what people assume or 
don't assume about me, unless they're hiring me for a contract. I want 
to be sure that my clients know I am technically capable and 
responsible, etc. But aside from that, I have stopped caring what anyone 
assumes about me. They get most of it wrong, they eventually find out 
they are wrong, and I genuinely don't care about any part of that process.
In my twenties, I didn't care, but it was a more belligerent 
in-your-face, piss and vinegar social statement, where I had to make 
sure everyone knew that I did not care what they thought of me. I think 
this was a reaction to the times, when women were still being treated 
like pretty ornaments in office environments and university campuses. 
It's how I was able to side-step a lot of bullshit and get my work done.
In my thirties I mellowed out a bit. Now that I've hit 40, I feel as if 
I am losing patience with age, and I don't have the time or energy for 
stupid people, no matter how many cross my path. I just ignore them, or 
like pesky  flies, I swat them away. My time is shorter, and thus more 
valuable to me, so I'm being more picky about how and with whom I spend it.
I no longer need to have long heated debates with people about womens 
achievements, my achievements, their own narrow-mindedness, or anything 
else. They can learn on/from someone else, the hard way.
This attitude I have has served to drastically narrow my friends and 
acquaintances down to a handful, and I'm actually happy about that.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm becoming too antisocial and introverted for my 
own good. Then I watch mainstream media for five minutes, and realize, 
no, I'm not missing a damned thing.
Gloria
> Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....
>
> Even in my old age, it still surprises me how often people like to think they 
> know everything about me, and feel free to say the most obnoxious things. 
> Like when I was shopping for property a few years ago. As soon as the sellers 
> or real estate agents learned I was from the Big City, they assumed I was 
> this dumbass city slicker with too much money and a predictable set of dumb 
> attitudes and beliefs about rural life. So I kept hearing crap like "well, 
> it's not what you're used to" and "This is a special price just for you!" 
> (Yeah, much higher.) I wish I had set them straight at the time, but I 
> didn't. How could they possibly know what I was used to? It's rather 
> mind-boggling as I look back on that- they never heard of people having 
> actual life experiences?
>
> Terry told me a tale once upon a time of a co-worker who was ranting on about 
> some personal problem, and she tells Terry "You have no idea what it's like 
> raising children!" Terry told her "Um, I raised three boys", which took the 
> wind out of her sails. For a little while, anyway. I'm always amazed at 
> the "You have no idea what it's like!" type of statements- I always get stuck 
> on the sheer proud ignorance of statements like that, and never respond in a 
> satisfactory way.
>
> When do you correct people's incorrect assumptions, and when do you let them 
> slide? I tend to not make an issue of it, because I'm usually thinking of a 
> hundred other things and I think it's not worth trying to educate idiots. OK, 
> so it's not a very complimentary attitude towards other people, and later I 
> often regret that I didn't say something. So I'm consciously working to set 
> people straight more often when they make stupid assumptions, rather than 
> letting it slide.
>
> Women in tech bump into dopey assumptions constantly. We're here with our 
> boyfriends, or we're dying to spend half a day listening to some long-winded 
> geek expound on his favorite subjects, or we can't possibly have any skills 
> or knowledge of our own, or we're just dying to mate with whatever 
> socially-challenged ickwit succeeds in cornering us. Come to think of it, 
> that's common in most of life. But I digress. Here are a few assumptions that 
> I encounter on a regular basis:
>
> - When I fly an American flag, that means I am a rightwingnut patriot of the 
> icky kind
> - Where's my husband?
> - Oh, teehee you're gay. That means this other stuff then! (mostly wrong, 
> though if they want to believe I'm mean and shouldn't be messed with, that's 
> OK. Them tuff dykes, ya know)
> - I write computer howtos, so I'm eager to listen to people rant about all the 
> things they hate about computers (which all boils down to 'too lazy and 
> unwilling to learn')
>
> So this week's assignment is what assumptions do you encounter, and what do 
> you do about them? Is it worth correcting people when they assume wrong 
> things about you, or is it akin to teaching pigs to sing? Does it benefit you 
> it ways other than you're not kicking yourself later for not responding?
>   


From carla@bratgrrl.com  Mon May 28 19:19:38 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....]
Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 12:17:54 -0700
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On Monday 28 May 2007 11:28, Gloria W wrote:
>. Now that I've hit 40, I feel as if
> I am losing patience with age, and I don't have the time or energy for
> stupid people, no matter how many cross my path. I just ignore them, or
> like pesky =A0flies, I swat them away.

LOL! What a great image. It resonated with me, anyway. :)

> This attitude I have has served to drastically narrow my friends and
> acquaintances down to a handful, and I'm actually happy about that.

I'm rather like that, too. I'm not comfortable with Instant Friendships, no=
t=20
interested in being friends with every person I meet, and it takes time for=
=20
me to decide if I really want to invest in a friendship with a particular=20
person. Sometimes I wonder if I'm missing out by being so fussy.

Terry, my awesome SO, is the opposite. A classic extrovert who is gifted at=
=20
getting along with people, and still maintaining her boundaries. Sometimes =
I=20
think I should be more like that. Then I go back to my old cranky ways, and=
=20
it seems to work. After all, isn't the point of this course to figure out=20
what's right for us as individuals? :)

> I have stopped caring what anyone
> assumes about me. They get most of it wrong, they eventually find out
> they are wrong, and I genuinely don't care about any part of that process.

I've figured out that I do care. I'm not interested in getting into big=20
debates all the time, but I am working at being more assertive at correctin=
g=20
the dumb assumptions that bother me.

=2D-=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook!=20
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From strangest@comcast.net  Mon May 28 20:04:51 2007
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> I'm rather like that, too. I'm not comfortable with Instant Friendships, not 
> interested in being friends with every person I meet, and it takes time for 
> me to decide if I really want to invest in a friendship with a particular 
> person. Sometimes I wonder if I'm missing out by being so fussy.
>   
Me too, but I'd rather wonder than be trapped in a superficial 
friendship, feeling too badly to tell the person to leave me alone, and 
giving more than getting from the friendship. I've recently lobbed off 
all of the superficial friendships in my life, because I just don't have 
time, and I'm going through this weird reclusive period of my life. I 
want to choose who befriends me, where and when they rely on me, what 
the do and don't need from me. People who suck me dry are gone now.
> Terry, my awesome SO, is the opposite. A classic extrovert who is gifted at 
> getting along with people, and still maintaining her boundaries. Sometimes I 
> think I should be more like that. Then I go back to my old cranky ways, and 
> it seems to work. After all, isn't the point of this course to figure out 
> what's right for us as individuals? :)
>   
That is cool that she can do that. And once again, youve hit on 
something, Carla. Boundaries, the nasty 'B' word for me. Except when it 
comes to anyone touching my body, my boundaries have, for the most part, 
been defined by other people. I guess this is why I am backlashing now. 
I have always corrected myself by doing the opposite of what I did 
wrong. I hope to find balance one day. For now, this serves me, so it is 
what I will do.
>
> I've figured out that I do care. I'm not interested in getting into big 
> debates all the time, but I am working at being more assertive at correcting 
> the dumb assumptions that bother me.
>   
I wonder if I should care or not. I am tired of fighting the good fight. 
It is exhausting, and I'm not even sure I've had a lasting impact. I 
have been the exception to many people's assumptions about women, but 
have I really changed their minds? Probably not.

Gloria


From carla@bratgrrl.com  Mon May 28 21:15:18 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....]
Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 14:13:33 -0700
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On Monday 28 May 2007 12:58, Gloria W wrote:
> > I've figured out that I do care. I'm not interested in getting into big
> > debates all the time, but I am working at being more assertive at
> > correcting the dumb assumptions that bother me.
> > =A0
>
> I wonder if I should care or not. I am tired of fighting the good fight.
> It is exhausting, and I'm not even sure I've had a lasting impact. I
> have been the exception to many people's assumptions about women, but
> have I really changed their minds? Probably not.

I think you already answered this:

> They get most of it wrong, they eventually find out
> they are wrong, and I genuinely don't care about any part of that process.

Your actions speak louder than words. People do figure things out sooner or=
=20
later, unless they are exceptionally thick. Like the ones who eventually=20
figure out that us perverts really are human beings after all. I want to=20
short-circuit the process a bit and set certain people straight at the=20
outset. I can't think of any examples right now, but when I think of some=20
I'll share. :)

=2D-=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook!=20
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org  Mon May 28 21:41:03 2007
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org>
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Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....]
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On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 01:02:54PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> So this week's assignment is what assumptions do you encounter, and what do 
> you do about them? Is it worth correcting people when they assume wrong 
> things about you, or is it akin to teaching pigs to sing? Does it benefit you 
> it ways other than you're not kicking yourself later for not responding?

Heh, I had a "wrong assumption" problem only yesterday.  I was buying a
DVD recorder (it was on sale) and the salesman started interrogating me
about my TV.  I asked him "Why?" and he said that if the TV didn't have
certain inputs, I wouldn't be able to connect up the DVD recorder.  He
was assuming that I was a dumb woman who couldn't deal with tech!  I
said to him "No worries, I *have* connected up stuff like this before."
and he dropped it.  Heh.  He'd probably go cross-eyed at the setup I
have, what with cascading connections between multiple machines (VCR and
DVD) all working perfectly fine.

In that case, I corrected him mainly because I wanted him to stop going
on about it; I just wanted my DVD recorder.  (And yes, I hooked it up
last night without any problems)

Other assumptions people have made...
- "You're a Christian, therefore you're a rednecked Fundamentalist bigot."
That one can only be corrected by day-by-day interaction with me,
it can't be corrected by an irritated "No, I'm not," because
they won't believe such an assertion.  So it isn't even worth trying,
most of the time.
- "You know all about computers, can you fix my PC for me?"
I've managed to train my family out of that by repeated "No, I don't use
MS-Windows, I can't help you."

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Tue May 29 03:46:56 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
To: courses@linuxchix.org
Subject: Re: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....]
Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 20:45:09 -0700
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On Monday 28 May 2007 14:38, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 01:02:54PM -0700, Carla Schroder wrote:
> > So this week's assignment is what assumptions do you encounter, and what
> > do you do about them? Is it worth correcting people when they assume
> > wrong things about you, or is it akin to teaching pigs to sing? Does it
> > benefit you it ways other than you're not kicking yourself later for not
> > responding?
>
> Heh, I had a "wrong assumption" problem only yesterday.  I was buying a
> DVD recorder (it was on sale) and the salesman started interrogating me
> about my TV.  I asked him "Why?" and he said that if the TV didn't have
> certain inputs, I wouldn't be able to connect up the DVD recorder.  He
> was assuming that I was a dumb woman who couldn't deal with tech!  I
> said to him "No worries, I *have* connected up stuff like this before."
> and he dropped it. 

He listened and didn't continue to interrogate you. Sounds like a good outcome 
to me!

>
> Other assumptions people have made...
> - "You're a Christian, therefore you're a rednecked Fundamentalist bigot."
> That one can only be corrected by day-by-day interaction with me,
> it can't be corrected by an irritated "No, I'm not," because
> they won't believe such an assertion.  So it isn't even worth trying,
> most of the time.

Erp. (raises hand.) Not at you, but I live in the land of rednecked 
Fundamentalist bigots. A person gets a bit gun-shy! But that's no excuse.

> - "You know all about computers, can you fix my PC for me?"
> I've managed to train my family out of that by repeated "No, I don't use
> MS-Windows, I can't help you."
>

Another fine example of the effectiveness of Broken Record!

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From isabelle.hurbain@pasithee.fr  Thu May 31 09:50:35 2007
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Le Tue, 29 May 2007 07:38:35 +1000,
Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org> a =C3=A9crit :

> - "You know all about computers, can you fix my PC for me?"
> I've managed to train my family out of that by repeated "No, I don't
> use MS-Windows, I can't help you."

Many people do not have any idea of what is computer science. "I'm a
Ph.D. Student in CS" got me more than once "oh, then maybe you can fix
my printer" and other stuff of this kind... Or, because my thesis
subject had to do with H.264 encoding, the assumption that I know every
tiny timsy option of every piece of software ever written to encode or
read a DiVX.
And then, when you explain that no, you can't, your considered either
as a bad or as an incompetent person in your field. Nice indeed.

Isa

From olusola.fadero@gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 08:10:36 2007
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From: "Olusola Fadero" <olusola.fadero@gmail.com>
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On 31/05/07, Isabelle Hurbain <isabelle.hurbain@pasithee.fr> wrote:
>
> Le Tue, 29 May 2007 07:38:35 +1000,
> Kathryn Andersen <kat_lists@katspace.homelinux.org> a =E9crit :
>
> > - "You know all about computers, can you fix my PC for me?"
> > I've managed to train my family out of that by repeated "No, I don't
> > use MS-Windows, I can't help you."
>
> Many people do not have any idea of what is computer science. "I'm a
> Ph.D. Student in CS" got me more than once "oh, then maybe you can fix
> my printer" and other stuff of this kind... Or, because my thesis
> subject had to do with H.264 encoding, the assumption that I know every
> tiny timsy option of every piece of software ever written to encode or
> read a DiVX.
> And then, when you explain that no, you can't, your considered either
> as a bad or as an incompetent person in your field. Nice indeed.
>
>
>
You may be considered it but as long as it doesn't make you feel guilty who
cares. You are also teaching that person that not everyone who mentions the
word "computer" or "IT"  in their job description can fix their problem.

I've learnt from other IT people as I've gotten older to either introduce
myself  as "Working in the finance/transport/defence/whatever industry", sa=
y
"I'm a software engineer"   or to say whatever meaningless job title that
particular company has decided to give me.    This has significantly
decreased the number of strangers who ask me to fix their computer or
printer. [This is because they are still trying to work out what I do.]

With friends' and family because there is more than one person in every
group I hang out with who has some interest in computers, they know asking
me or the other person to fix something will lead to a long discussion and
it may be quicker for the person with the problem trying to fix it
themselves.  :)

However it doesn't stop me from doing stuff like removing viruses of
people's computers.

Olusola

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On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 07:36:15AM +0200, Isabelle Hurbain wrote:
> And then, when you explain that no, you can't, your considered either
> as a bad or as an incompetent person in your field. Nice indeed.
I would consider someone who made *that* assumption to be both stupid
and arrogant.  Who are *they* to declare that you're incompetent in a
field that *they* know nothing about?  Geeze, that's like declaring an
aerospace engineer incompetant because they aren't a motor mechanic.
(eyeroll)

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\     | Kathryn Andersen  <http://www.katspace.com>
/      \    | 
\_.--.*/    | GenFicCrit mailing list <http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/>
      v     | 
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

From kmactane@gothpunk.com  Fri Jun  1 13:49:20 2007
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 07:36:15AM +0200, Isabelle Hurbain wrote:
>> And then, when you explain that no, you can't, your considered either
>> as a bad or as an incompetent person in your field. Nice indeed.
> I would consider someone who made *that* assumption to be both stupid
> and arrogant.  Who are *they* to declare that you're incompetent in a
> field that *they* know nothing about?  Geeze, that's like declaring an
> aerospace engineer incompetant because they aren't a motor mechanic.
> (eyeroll)

Hear, hear!

                                                 --Kai MacTane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Deadly angels for reality and passion..."
                                                 --Shriekback,
                                                  "Gunning for the
                                                   Buddha"

From amandaangell@spin.net.au  Fri Jun  1 15:08:55 2007
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On Monday 28 May 2007 5:32 am, Carla Schroder wrote:
> Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....

> - When I fly an American flag, that means I am a rightwingnut patriot of
> the icky kind

> So this week's assignment is what assumptions do you encounter, and what do
> you do about them? Is it worth correcting people when they assume wrong
> things about you, or is it akin to teaching pigs to sing? Does it benefit
> you it ways other than you're not kicking yourself later for not
> responding?

I am more than willing to admit that I have done just the opposite of the 
assumptions that everyone else has wrote about here so far. Instead of people 
making assumptions about me, I've made some big assumptions about them - 
based on, sometimes, flimsy evidence/hearsay, and others, a lifetime of being 
told bull-sh** from various sources.

I don't think getting p*ssed-off at anothers assumptions is going to help them 
find out the truth about a situation. People learn the truth from experience, 
and mistakes are the best teachers. Of course, if a person isn't willing to 
open their eyes, that's a different matter. :)

All I wanted to say was, take it a little easy on the poor fools who, like me, 
are still making mistakes, and still learning every day.

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Fri Jun  1 17:47:58 2007
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From: Carla Schroder <carla@bratgrrl.com>
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On Friday 01 June 2007 08:02, amandaangell@spin.net.au wrote:
> On Monday 28 May 2007 5:32 am, Carla Schroder wrote:
> > Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....
> >
> > - When I fly an American flag, that means I am a rightwingnut patriot of
> > the icky kind
> >
> > So this week's assignment is what assumptions do you encounter, and what
> > do you do about them? Is it worth correcting people when they assume
> > wrong things about you, or is it akin to teaching pigs to sing? Does it
> > benefit you it ways other than you're not kicking yourself later for not
> > responding?
>
> I am more than willing to admit that I have done just the opposite of the
> assumptions that everyone else has wrote about here so far. Instead of
> people making assumptions about me, I've made some big assumptions about
> them - based on, sometimes, flimsy evidence/hearsay, and others, a lifetime
> of being told bull-sh** from various sources.
>
> I don't think getting p*ssed-off at anothers assumptions is going to help
> them find out the truth about a situation. People learn the truth from
> experience, and mistakes are the best teachers. Of course, if a person
> isn't willing to open their eyes, that's a different matter. :)
>
> All I wanted to say was, take it a little easy on the poor fools who, like
> me, are still making mistakes, and still learning every day.

That's a very good point, and you are right!
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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On Friday 01 June 2007 08:02, amandaangell@spin.net.au wrote:
> On Monday 28 May 2007 5:32 am, Carla Schroder wrote:
> > Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....
> >
> > - When I fly an American flag, that means I am a rightwingnut patriot of
> > the icky kind
> >
> > So this week's assignment is what assumptions do you encounter, and what
> > do you do about them? Is it worth correcting people when they assume
> > wrong things about you, or is it akin to teaching pigs to sing? Does it
> > benefit you it ways other than you're not kicking yourself later for not
> > responding?
>
> I am more than willing to admit that I have done just the opposite of the
> assumptions that everyone else has wrote about here so far. Instead of
> people making assumptions about me, I've made some big assumptions about
> them - based on, sometimes, flimsy evidence/hearsay, and others, a lifetime
> of being told bull-sh** from various sources.
>
> I don't think getting p*ssed-off at anothers assumptions is going to help
> them find out the truth about a situation. People learn the truth from
> experience, and mistakes are the best teachers. Of course, if a person
> isn't willing to open their eyes, that's a different matter. :)
>
> All I wanted to say was, take it a little easy on the poor fools who, like
> me, are still making mistakes, and still learning every day.

Sometimes I *assume* that someone has made assumptions, based on a statement 
they make, a question they ask, or what they are wearing, the way they are 
acting, etc. And when I assume, I tend to become defensive. That's often a 
mistake on my part. :-)

When I've become defensive, with all the physical and mental changes that that 
state creates -- increased tension, faster breathing and heartbeat, fight or 
flight instincts primed -- it is more difficult to really see, really hear, 
really sense the true situation. My choices at that point are basically flee 
or fight. Since I was raised in an alcoholic home, I spent much of my early 
life in this state. Probably not too good for my health!

One of the reasons I like _When I say no_ so much, is that the actions and 
responses it teaches, rachet down the tension, and remove the temptation to 
fall into defensiveness. One of our strengths as humans is our curiosity, and 
it's the engine for our progress and learning. When I can meet everybody on 
the path with curiosity and vulnerability, I can learn from them, and they 
might be able to learn from me, too.  

People can still push my buttons, but I'm working on that. My buttons don't 
seem to be serving me all that well. As for correcting wrongful 
assumptions -- I think that has to be case-by-case. Any time I'm feeling 
defensive, it's probably a waste of time. Non-defensive -- I might learn 
something, and maybe so will the other person.

Valorie <--- who needs to read the book again

From carla@bratgrrl.com  Wed Jun  6 01:28:49 2007
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Subject: [Courses] [Spineful Living, lesson 8: Just Talk, Just Ask, Just Do]
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This is the final lesson of this course, and in some ways the most basic one: 

**** Just Talk, Just Ask, Just Do ****

How often do we not get something because we just don't speak up? Sometimes 
it's small things, like choosing a movie or TV show, or where to eat or what 
to wear. Sometimes it's big things, like jobs or where to live, or how to 
budget money.

It's common for us to psyche ourselves out without even trying- we think "I 
won't even bother asking because they'll just say no." Like asking for a 
raise, or a different work assignment, or asking that Special Someone for a 
date, or any number of everyday decisions: where to eat, what to wear, what 
to do for fun....

What if you don't know what you want? Remember Lesson 1 of this course, which 
was all about figuring out what you do want. That's always the first step; 
everything flows from that. 

"Just ask" is the next step, or "Just do", depending on what you want. When I 
tell people I write for a living, almost every one of them says "Wow, I 
always wanted to be a writer, but..." and then there's the usual reasons: no 
time, need a nice computer, need to take a bunch of courses... if you really 
want to do something, then you just do it. I know it's a cliche, but it is 
true. In my case, that meant sitting down at the typewriter and writing. 
(Yes, typewriter! If you're too young to remember typewriters, look them up 
in Wikipedia.) 

I wrote during work breaks and in my spare time. I read books on writing and 
how to sell my work. Originally I wanted to be a fiction writer, but then a 
funny thing happened- as personal computers emerged, I became more interested 
in them as fun new technology than tools for writing. I spend more time 
taking them apart and putting them back together than actually using them. 

As I learned, I wanted to share what I knew. So I pitched some articles to a 
local computer magazine. It didn't pay much, and the publisher was this weird 
guy who was hard to talk to, but it got me started. It was incredible 
experience, it introduced me to a lot of cool people, and it led to better 
opportunities. So here I am today, writing geekstuff instead of fiction.

Women especially like to think they're rampantly unqualified, and need all 
sorts of skills and education and experience before they can be allowed to do 
anything. Guess what- it's not true. Just Do. Obviously, you don't just hang 
up a sign that says Brain Surgeon and go into business. But listen to your 
guts- listen to the voice that says "I can do this!" Even if you're starting 
from scratch, you _know_. Just like from the time I was wee child I knew I 
was good with my hands, and could learn anything I set my mind to: 
woodworking, auto mechanics, landscaping, music. Computers are just more 
mechanicking.

So you find a starting point and Just Do. Find other people who are doing what 
you want and hang out with them. (This goes back to Just Talk and Just Ask.) 
Networking is the most valuable skill you can learn. It doesn't matter how 
awesome your technical skills are if you don't have people skills. If the 
word "networking" scares you, then think of it as "developing relationships 
with people who interest you, and who you like being with." 

If you find yourself saying "I wish there was a bird-watching club here" then 
that's your cue to start one yourself. "I wish I had someone as wheezy as me 
to go on weekend hikes with." Ditto. "I wish..." etc. 

**** Opposition! ****

I guarantee that most of the time you'll find helpful, supportive people in 
your adventures. What do you do when you hear "no"? Well, that's when you 
grow more spine and perservere! "No" is no big deal. It might mean "no not 
now", or "no because the terms you are offering are not suitable, but I'm 
willing to dicker" or "no because I'm a butthead you don't want to hang out 
with anyway" or any number of potential scenarios. Do you give up? No!

Your final homework assignment is study "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty." It's a 
wonderful book that teaches all these things much better than I can.

Anyone who wishes to share their own "Just Talk, Just Ask, Just Do" stories is 
very welcome. We've had a number of those during this course and I have 
enjoyed and learned from every one.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carla Schroder
Linux geek and random computer tamer
check out my Linux Cookbook! 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxckbk/
best book for sysadmins and power users
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From cmoliver@gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 12:33:52 2007
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>"Just ask" is the next step, or "Just do", depending on what you want. When
I 
>tell people I write for a living, almost every one of them says "Wow, I 
>always wanted to be a writer, but..." and then there's the usual reasons:
no 
>time, need a nice computer, need to take a bunch of courses... if you
really 
>want to do something, then you just do it. I know it's a cliche, but it is 
>true. In my case, that meant sitting down at the typewriter and writing. 
>(Yes, typewriter! If you're too young to remember typewriters, look them up

>in Wikipedia.) 
>
>I wrote during work breaks and in my spare time. I read books on writing
and 
>how to sell my work. Originally I wanted to be a fiction writer, but then a

As someone who woke up an hour earlier this morning just to start typing out
the first chapter of her novella, I particularly laughed at reading this.

Yes.  Just do.

I had an aunt tell me something that I frequently remember and think about.
She told me that I tended to be the sort of person that generally
accomplished things that I set out to do, when other people talk about doing
them someday.  I'd never thought of myself in this way, but having someone
else point it out really meant a lot to me.

Whenever I get discouraged about something, I think back to sitting by the
lake that day and having that conversation.  Then I look at what steps I can
take *today* to get to whatever I want to accomplish and I start working on
them.  If you keep at it, eventually you get to that thing you wanted.

Just do.

What I find interesting about this concept is that it tends to be circular.
I've just accomplished a major goal in my life that's been driving me for
the last six years (earning a bachelor's degree while building a career), so
now I'm back to step one.  What do I want to do now that that's done?  What
do I want?  (And what the heck do I do with all this spare time I suddenly
have? :) 

Thank goodness we have archives, so I can now go review the next steps to
take. :)

Happy doing -
Charlotte


From syleniel@gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 14:27:56 2007
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On 6/6/07, Charlotte Oliver <cmoliver@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes.  Just do.


Yes! I'm getting in the habit of just doing more often :)


What I find interesting about this concept is that it tends to be circular.
> I've just accomplished a major goal in my life that's been driving me for
> the last six years (earning a bachelor's degree while building a career),
> so
> now I'm back to step one.  What do I want to do now that that's
> done?  What
> do I want?  (And what the heck do I do with all this spare time I suddenly
> have? :)
>
>
Congrats on finishing your degree! I'm finishing my BS in October, and I
know exactly what you mean about suddenly having a lot of time on your hands
without all the school work. Previously, when I haven't had assigned work
(like homework) to occupy a lot of my time, I have found myself at loose
ends. I'll be getting into the "just do it" mindset to get my list of "to
do's" done. That should take care of that extra pesky free time ;)

-- 
Tracey C

From linda@meridian-ds.com  Wed Jun  6 12:48:36 2007
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 Just Do]
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Well....I can't give specifics because....well, because.  But I've Just
Asked for two things yesterday that, for me are huge.  And I Just Asked
for them *before* we got lesson 8.

I hope to share happy details later.  I can say that I don't think I
would have done either one without the support of not just this Course,
but the LinuxChix in general.

LP